Toqtamish said:

Not sure why you would judge something without even seeing it yourself. 

Staton said:

Yeah - really ahrd to tkae your criticsms seriosuly if you aren't even watching.

Martin is not so rgeat a writer that hsi stuff has to be adapated word for word. Yeah porbably no Reeds, no Blackfish (overrated anyway), and Lorch didn't get eaten by a bear. I am fine with a few changes - and I think the series is excellent. looking forward ot buying the Blurya box set for this season as well.

We all have favorite minor characters who've been cut.  I think that's unavoidable.  The series simply could not be made as a strict adaptation, it would not work.  Sadly, the other facet of this is that many of us are going to think our favorite side characters shouldn't have been cut for some-reason-or-another, and the obvious danger is to fall into arguing about who's really important, who isn't, and what is needed to maintain "the plot."

For example:  I love the Reeds, I'm worried that we won't see them at all.  I'm imagining Osha taking Bran all the way to the cave (though that would raise the question of what happens to Rickon), and it could work.  The only real reason I worry about the Reeds being left out is their connection to their father, and that he is the only man alive that knows what happened in the Tower of Joy (not that the series has even mentioned it yet).

HOWEVER, at the same time I have to realize that GRRM is on the inside here, and I have to trust that anything that "the plot" (and he'd know what it is better than any of us) is intact, and that the important story will be told.

There's also going to be character development that we'll miss.  I've read someone here say that they didn't think Robert got developed properly as the "fallen knight," and maybe that's so, but they are operating on such strict time limits, there's bound to be development left out.

Yes, the series is making explicit things that were only implied in the books.  That doesn't mean they're "deviating" or "changing the books," just presenting a different point of view; I think that's an important thing to remember.  This series is not the books being retold.  It is the story being told by a different storyteller, a different point of view.

To answer the question in the name of this thread:

Is this series going to be a replacement for the books?  Of course not.  I never expected that from it, and I don't think it's reasonable for anyone to have done so.  So what do I expect?  I hope for (and the first season has made me expect from later seasons) a good, solid adaptation, with strong acting and good writing.  I expect a series that conveys the soul of the story, and inspires me and other to read (or re-read) the source material.

 I'm not bothered by the changes aimed for simplification or speed,of the plot (in Return of the King I was glad they substituted the whoke Shire purge for a simple talk in the tavern that fulfilled the gist of it). 

SPOILERS BELOW

But I'm not liking the changes in motivations and personalities. In the books Theon was pretty bent on betraying Robb the moment he set sail to Pyke (or so I remember), but in the series he was coerced into it. Think they tried to make him conflicted… So they intend we don't cheer when he falls on Ramsay's claws?

If we were talking about a "normal" man, it would be a completely aceptable master-servant treatment the one Tywin gives to Arya, but we are talking about the man who hasn't smiled for over 25 years and put his other in law to parade naked in the streets. He is being too warm.

Stannis I think is more a matter of bad casting/acting than script. He appears weak, he talks weak, he does not strike me as the man who could get the loyalty of someone even after chopping his fingers.

Littlefinger… I think they are revealing his character too early. It will be no surprise to anyone when he does what he does at the end of season/book three, while in the book I was completely off-guard (and loved it).

I would prefer Loras still blamed Brienne for Renly's murder, but this is very minor.

I miss the clansmen. Want more Davos screentime. Would decapitate all my Black Brothers as soon as I laid my eyes on that Ygritte with no inch of remorse (have a problem with redheads, hope the wife don't read this).

I think people tend to forget that even characters who do bad things often have underlying motivations. Sometimes in the show it needs to be a little more explicitly laid down since some characters don't have PoV chapters.

Theon and Cersei both do appalling things. Yet both have emotional conflicts but you didn't get a good grasp of them till their own PoV chapters. It makes them a little more sympathetic although that doesn't mean you have to absolve them either.

When characters are acted out you have little choice but to reveal things. Theon's look when he kills Roderick is the real Theon, purely conflicted by what he does.

As for Tywin, he respects competence in general. Also, I think he's curious about Arya and likely suspects she is higher born then she currently claims.

jgt7771 said:

And that flipwit actually pulls it off. Obviously sparsely defended, Winterfell falls quickly to Theon’s marauders: Luwin barely has enough time to whip off a raven! Reaching new lows, Theon bullies poor Bran and hacks off Rodrik’s head (being rather inept at both), and cementing my (and Rodrik’s) opinion that this Iron Twit is lost. At the moment, I’m not interested in his redemption any more than I care for the same for most Lannisters; I look forward to his PAIN. I could tell the MOMENT Osha made her play that (a) we were gonna see her nude (it's not TV, it's HBO), and (b) the perpetually-horny Saltsucker was gonna fall for it. I was kinda hoping that Osha would just disembowel him right there, but I’ll settle for her getting the rest of the Starks out of Greyjoy’s sty: Daddy won't like that. 

After a little more flirting with Talisa, and a motherly reminder that his duty is to live a life without a delicious Talisa center, Robb gets wind of Theon’s BS, and rightly wants to drop everything and go claim some Greyjoy body parts of his own. Shame he’s in the middle of this damn war. But there’s a countryman with a garrison of his own that could probably take out one ship’s worth of pirates.  I'd be very interested in seeing Robb question

Apparently Tyrion wasn’t kidding at all about sending Myrcella off to be Dorne-wed, and Cersei makes him VERY aware that he’s never going to be happy again, if she has anything to say about it. Not a very promising bulletin for Shae, to be sure, but it doesn’t seem like Cersei was making a directed threat, just a blanket one, which is probably why Tyrion just moves off without saying anyth…OOP! RIOT!

…over a cowpie?!? RRRRRRR!

Seriously! We DON’T NEED any more reasons to HATE JOFFREY!!! It’s absolutely PATHETIC how this inbred cockroach still whines, “But I’m King! But I’m King!” every time someone doesn’t mewl at his feet. SO HAPPY Tyrion smacked him one, but sooner or later, Tyrion’s just got to give up on this brat. Cersei too.

Meanwhile, Sansa is separated from the group and then a good portion of her clothes as three would-be rapists corner her in some dirty hut to discuss their dissatisfaction with the current political climate. They all raise some very good points, but from out of nowhere, the Hound argues some extremely terminal counterpoints. I hope this means one more push towards Sansound: I’m just not certain when the Hound growls at Tyrion, “I didn’t do it for YOU,” that he means he did it for the King either.

Arya keeps getting lucky with her clever answers to Tywin’s constant prodding—not sure if Tywin thinks there’s something to gain by that, or if he’s just passing time by playing mind games—but her luck with thievery is a different story. She may have managed to avoid being recognized by Littlefinger—although I think he absolutely did, but Baelish keeps his hole cards facedown until he plays them—but Lorch ain’t buying any of her not-stolen-message skylarking. Good thing she’s got a Jaqen in her pocket, although not only did she waste another of her three wishes on another halfwitted Lannister stooge, but it looks like Harrenhal’s about to go into lockdown. Better make that last name count, Arya!

Back to Baelish for a second: now that he’s out of favor with Cersei, and (I would guess) that Stannis could barely tolerate sharing the same planetary atmosphere with him, let alone his presence, he’s trying to get Tywin (over Cersei’s head) to hook up with the Tyrells. I guess the Tyrells have a decent level of manpower, and I suppose a pincer movement on the rest of the Riverrun could put a dent in Stannis’ land war. Not that I want Baelish to gain anything at this point.

Quorin spends some telling Jon that everything he thinks, knows, or feels is wrong, and then they kill that wildling scout nest. Well, except for this fur-clad redhead named Ygritte, whose surprising beauty gives Jon pause. Quorin tells Jon to execute her while the rest of the squad move up the mountain (far away from the impending cliché). Jon fails to realize he’s caught in the deadly cliché, and once he’s distracted, Ygritte rabbits off. Merry chase through Iceland…snow tackle…omg Jon’s been left behind…we’re gonna die if we don’t preserve body warmth…okay I’ll spoon your hidden-but-obviously-knockout body but only because I don’t want to die of cliché exposure. Yeah, sorry, but this feels derivative as all hell. However, I will give Ygritte points for her “innocent” member-groping bottom—that was cute—but I hope the cliché blows itself out before too much damage occurs.

Daenerys keeps trying to trade on her lofty intentions, and however much I like her, I can’t blame the Spice King for not investing in her less-than-promising prospects. Maybe “Mother of Dragons” will carry more clout when your dragons can do more damage than a match and a can of hair spray. Oh, and it also might help if you actually POSSESS them. Yes, someone has taken the dragons and killed Irri—there was a lot of fuss about this character’s name; maybe this is why that wasn’t a big deal?—and has apparently taken them to this pinkish-orange tower that would seem to be ominous…if I had read the books and it was more than just some orangey-pink tower? A perfect storm of outlying clichés to those not familiar with such Easter eggs.

A quickish response to the parts of the thread I could read without spoilers:

Having not read the books, I find the show to be fantastic.  Better than most sagas of any setting or genre.  But it's pretty rare that I invest time in stuff like this without having more knowledge of the source material.  (If I haven't read it, why should I care?  Example: the Twilight series.)  So I have seen a lot of adapted material, often with friends and family who aren't familiar with it at all, and while I might have a few issues with [Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Hunger Games, Marvel Comics, etc.], my companions do not.  I would also tend to believe that the "unwashed masses" will always outnumber the "hardcore fans", so if THEY love it, it will thrive, regardless of what problems the hardcore fans have with it.

In such rare cases where I find myself as one of THEM and not one of the "insider fans", and thoroughly enjoy the movie/show as the product that it is (Dexter, True Blood, Thrones), I have to say--gonna borrow Jaqen for a second here--sorry, it's a man's problem, not the show's.  A man can either get over it or not, but if a man does not, the rest of THEM are just going to dismiss a man's opinions as "too hardcore to matter", and generally ignore a man.

 If the last episode was anything to go by, then by series 3, they probably won't need to pay Martin any Royalties. The whole thing has just gone so far from the plot of the books as to be unrecognisable.

It's not just 1 or 2 characters being tweaked or minor folk left out, it's massive chunks of plot being dreamt up from nowhere.

Jaqen killing the wrong people
Arya being Tywin's cupbearer, not Rooses
No Tully's - Edmure, Blackfish, no Riverrun
Jon and Ygritte, no idea what's going on there.
Dany far more mad and angry than she ought to be at this point, having her dragons stolen and her handmaidens murdered? what was that all about? how are wer ever going to have the brilliant "It is NOT known" moment during the Mereen pit fights)
Reeds?
Osha?
Asha?
Devan?
Clansmen?
Florents?
Selyse (locked in a tower? wtf??), Shireen?
What's Littlefinger upto? well, we know in full detail because it's being shown scene-by-scene, please leave your imagination or ability to be surprised at the door.
Tulisa????? (Jeyne?)
Alton Lannister
Bronn of the Goldcloaks, later married to… oh hang on a minute
 

Current predictions for series 3. After Davos's fleet successfully capture Kings Landing, Robb will engage Stannis in single-combat and win independence for the North. (Tywin never made it to Blackwater, as Jaqen had killed all of his men. He is betrayed by the Freys who kill Jamie and send his body to the Eyrie. Jon becomes King Beyond the Wall, and Persuades the Free Folk to Join Robb in fighting off an invasion from the Warlocks of Qarth and their dragons.

Doran Martell thinks about doing something, but decides to wait. (Even HBO wouldn't change something THAT much)

Mighty Jim said:

Okay, I think this has provided me with enough examples that I can explain my point of view.

THIS POST IS FULL OF SPOILER.  You have been warned.

I think it's very important not to confuse details with plot.

Plot: That there is a strange assassin who pledges to kill three people for Arya, and eventually gives her the means to enter the House of Black & White.  Detail: Who those three people are (provided that they remain people who aren't terribly important).  Really, what does it matter who they are?

Plot: That Arya serves a term as cupbearer to an "enemy"  Detal: Exactly who it is.

Frankly, the Tullys are just not that important to the overall events of the story.  Sorry.

Jon and Ygritte: What is important in this relationship is that Jon learn empathy for the Wildlings.  Other than that, it doesn't matter how it happens.

The Reeds: also not that important (as much as I love them), except in possibly providing a connection to their father (who I still think is really important).  All they really do is guide Bran to the cave.  Osha can easily fill that role, though that would make me question who takes Rickon.  I still think it's possible that we'll see the Reeds later.

Not sure what you mean by your "Osha?" question.  She is there, and doing important things.

I assume that with "Asha?" you're meaning to bring up her name change to "Yara."  I agree that it's stupid, but I've actually already heard people complain that they can't tell characters apart.  Whatever.

Devan, the Clansmen, and the Florents don't really add anything to what's going on right now.  I haven't missed them.

Now I really feel like I'm just repeating myself.  What is important here is the the big things happen, and things happen for the right reasons.  You know, exactly what Bronn gets bribed with to turn on Tyrion isn't nearly as important as the fact that he does.

Who Robb breaks his oath to the Freys with is not as important as that he does.

So far this series has not deviated from the plot of the books at all; it has only deviated in the events it has depicted to carry that plot.

I find it unfortunate that people are bothered so terribly by that.

Jaqen killing the wrong people - Random Retainers of the Lannisters who have no bearing of the plot

Arya being Tywin's cupbearer, not Rooses - /Shrug. What hasn't occurred may still occur.

No Tully's - Edmure, Blackfish, no Riverrun -  Disappointing but fixing up another whole castle set and adding a tonne of characters costs money. May still appear anyways.

Jon and Ygritte, no idea what's going on there. - Superficial change is superficial. Ygritte is more than happy to try and seduce a Night's Watchmen. Jon is uncomfortable with killing an unarmed female prisoner. Just like the books.

Dany far more mad and angry than she ought to be at this point, having her dragons stolen and her handmaidens murdered? what was that all about? how are wer ever going to have the brilliant "It is NOT known" moment during the Mereen pit fights) - Targ's are angry. Doesn't mean she won't check her head later. Maybe she what she needs is a big acid trip.

Reeds? - What matters is that Bran goes North of the Wall with Hodor.
Osha? - See above.

Asha? - Yara Greyjoy has successfully captured Deepwood Motte. Will make fun of Theon after she bumps uglies with Qarl the Maid.

Devan? - That Davos dude has way too many kids. Probably can't even keep track of them himself.

Clansmen? - Threatening to cut off Pycelle's dick and feed it to the goats. Settles for beard. Unsure if that's fed to the goats.

Florents? - Got sacrificed to Rh'llor off screen.

Selyse (locked in a tower? wtf??), Shireen? - Hey they mentioned Selyse. No one wants to look at a mustached lady anyways.

What's Littlefinger upto? well, we know in full detail because it's being shown scene-by-scene, please leave your imagination or ability to be surprised at the door. - Would you prefer dramatic narration from a PoV character?

Tulisa????? (Jeyne?) - "Hi, Mom. I just porked a random plot device. What do you mean there's no romance and she has no personality because we're not PoV characters?"

Alton Lannister - Damn blonde bastards. They're everywhere.

Bronn of the Goldcloaks, later married to… oh hang on a minute - That dude could use a good woman. Maybe he'll get fixed up later with random Lannister sycophant.

playgroundpsychotic said:

My feelings exactly.

 Yeah I really don't see a problem with what they are doing. Nothing big has changed yet.

KristoffStark said:

Precisely. Well said, ser.

 Dany's dragons being kidnapped are not "details"

nor is the distinction between Jon turning Yrgitte loose with Qoren and his men a stone's throw away, and close enough to shout for help, as opposed to however she will wander off now. Jon is supposed to go over to the Wildlings at Qoren's command, firm in his loyalty to the watch, not amid mixed emotions about the wildlings.

When Arya had her 3 names, the real Lannisters were far, far away (the ones who mattered) - if Tywin were there, would she really have passed up the opportunity so lightly to take Cersei's father from her, the way Cersei & Joffrey took hers (I know Cersei didn't mean for Ned to die, but Arya wasn't making that distinction). She is supposed to be serving as cup-bearer to an uncertain ally - she has no notion of the Bolton treachery until much later, not the head of the family of her most hated enemies.

Obviously HBO were going to show more of the Rob/Jeyne thing than the books did, but this has changed the nature of their relationship entirely. Book Robb is wounded, distraught at the news from Winterfell, and finds solace in the arms of a strange girl, operating under a very short leash from her mother. HBO Robb has been flirting with a foreigner for a long period of time, meaning they either change the character's identity altogether, altering the whole relationship to the Lannsiter, or it turns out she's been lying to him all along, thus changing their relationship.

The show would generally be much better with P-o-V character narration and flashbacks, much closer to the flavour of things, better at keeping things in doubt/suspense and all the others types of subtlety which have been replaced by gratutious nudity.

 No the show would be much more to your liking (as a book reader) if they did PoV narration and flashbacks. It wouldn't make it a better show for the general audience. I'd much rather them make changes to allow the show to be more accessible than having one or two seasons that follow the books to a t and then getting canceled. You obviously feel different, but that doesn't make the show bad, imo. Just not the show you wanted.