Ron B. Stard said:

You seem to be expressing more anger than I think is appropriate for a game that's just a casual thing for you. I'd say that makes you a fan of something. If I wanted to be insulting I could easily add -boy to the end, but let's not do that.

Considering that I've been playing WHFRP since 1st edition came out in the mid 80's.... I'd say that this is par for the course. If you are familiar with the history, you will know what I mean.

1st edition - played well - owned by Games Workshop - dropped because it didn't move their mini lines and generate enough cash flow.

Long period of time without support - loyal fans kept the torch going - all supplements were fan based. Approximately 10 years pass.

Hogshead Publishing picks up the rights - In addition to cleaning up the typos and some of the language - they start releasing new materials and the game and fanbase begins to grow --- Games Workshop starts to smell income.

GW yanks the license and takes it over - hence 2nd edition -- on the plus side, second edition had enough improvements in the basic system to be an overall improvement - but those players that loved playing wizards wailed and gnashed teeth (if you were on the other forums, there was a lot of anger with the new spell system) 
 

GW realizes that even 2nd edition, with the added rules and suggestions to make using minis more integral to the game, fails to sell their overly expensive minis - so again, they drop production, but fortunately, Fantasy Flight was there to catch it.

Fantasy Flight is now working to improve the game --- will everything be an improvement......?.... that remains to be seen.... but, I fully expect that if GW starts to smell money again, that we'll see them try and yank the license all over ---- For most of us, this has been a fan driven product, and we have really never expected much in the way of support.

Will all the cards and tokens help? Maybe..... I know that I've used index cards in the same manner for years. Actually, I also have some graphic images I put together a while back, and routinely make my own "cards" ---- Graphic image on the back, and whatever on the front. I do question the Stress Track --- especially since one of the statements made was that the new edition was supposed to end the "players vs. the GM" syndrome that is so "prevalent" in our games (yes, I am being a touch sarcastic, as I have only rarely ever seen this issue in 30 years of gaming, and games with the GM vs. Player feel tend not to last long --- no matter what system they are in). I see the Stress Track, which adds penalties to PC's and is totally under the control of the GM, as being the bigger threat of GM railroading than any other tool that has been described so far.  If you don't do what the GM wants, your party is suffering "stress". I do know that FFG has a good history with board games --- especially, Descent --- and if they can bring some of the benifits over, then all is well and good.

I am just so hoping that they do not go 4E DnD on this .... and yes, I've heard a lot of people compare it already.... but they are still two totally different scenarios. 4E went way overboard -- to the point that if you look into their published modules and adventures you will not find anything "normal". Instead of wights, they have "slaughter wights" that get a free attack if you reduce them to 0 hit points - and if they hit you, they can use a healing surge to give themself 2d6 hitpoints back - and then, they can roll a d6, and on a roll of 5 or 6, have that power "recharged" and ready to use again, just as soon as they hit 0 hit points.

Everything in 4E now has a special name, and everything, from mindles skeletons, to basic orcs, ect now has a list of skills, and spell-like powers they can use. So far, it does not appear that 3E WHFRP is going quite that way..... although if I see an entry for "Fuzzy Wuzzy Beastmen" with this special power that does whatever once a day ---- I'm giving up on new RP games for good.

Nahuris

Ron B. Stard said:

Sorry but this is the last post you get from me over this pointless conversation. My statement before this was meant for something to draw a line and be done with the angry words at each other, but alas it failed to close the argument. And please in the future dont use the fanboy expression on people who are optimistic about a product that you feel negative about. I'm a warhammer fan, true. But not a boy. Thank you.

DagobahDave said:

If you're trying to confuse me Dave, you're doing a great job! Because I don't understand what your saying. I am sorry if I come across as angry but believe me the anger is directed at the new edition. I am merely slightly annoyed towards people who are trying to shut me up here. Where did you get the impression that WFRP is a casual thing to me? Or is this a subtle sarcasm? I am not native English speaker, so sometimes these things are hard to detect.

I freely admit I am a great fan of WFRP previous editions, and even a fanboy of said games. I don't see fanboy as such a disparaging insult some people here seem to think. In fact for a person of my age, I'd be flattered to be called 'boy' anything. Besides, if all of your posts about WFRP 3rd edition are always 100% positive, and if you always charge to the rescue when ever bad remark is made of the game, then in my books that makes you a fanboy.  You know better than me if you match the definition. If that's the worst thing you've ever been called in the Interweb, then you've had it easy, if you know what I mean.

But once again, rather than refuting my arguments, we're being sidetracked to personal issues. Not surprising really.

Ron B. Stard said:

Hehe, you mean in the same way that I don't take it as an insult when people call me arrogant and smug?

Nevertheless, in general it is probably considered sort of a slur towards someone you don't like. The same thing probably goes for calling someone a "fanboy sockpuppet". You know what I mean?

Ron B. Stard said:

Well if that's what it takes to be a fanboy, I haven't seen anyone be 100% positive about the game or defend it on every level.

There are lots of aspects of the game that concern me and I hope we'll be able to discuss them in the future without seeming hostile to one another. I really hope to see you around later when we're all a little cooler. :)

DagobahDave said:

Exactly.

My primary remarks here have mostly been about the gross difference between attitudes towards it. We have two sides here, one is mildly interested. Not hyperactive about it, nor proclaiming how good this game is going to be, but their interests have ben piqued. No more, no less.

Then there's the other side that acts like it's the end of the world. I mean, come on! Regardless of what you think of how the game the polarization here is a bit over the top.

Varnias Tybalt said:

This is going to be the greatest RPG of all!

jadrax said:

Merely one extreme OP mate. It doesn't prove a thing about the general opinions. There's more than one person on these messageboards you know...

Considering that I've been playing WHFRP since 1st edition came out in the mid 80's.... I'd say that this is par for the course. If you are familiar with the history, you will know what I mean.

1st edition - played well - owned by Games Workshop - dropped because it didn't move their mini lines and generate enough cash flow.

Long period of time without support - loyal fans kept the torch going - all supplements were fan based. Approximately 10 years pass.

Hogshead Publishing picks up the rights - In addition to cleaning up the typos and some of the language - they start releasing new materials and the game and fanbase begins to grow --- Games Workshop starts to smell income.

GW yanks the license and takes it over - hence 2nd edition -- on the plus side, second edition had enough improvements in the basic system to be an overall improvement - but those players that loved playing wizards wailed and gnashed teeth (if you were on the other forums, there was a lot of anger with the new spell system)
 

GW realizes that even 2nd edition, with the added rules and suggestions to make using minis more integral to the game, fails to sell their overly expensive minis - so again, they drop production, but fortunately, Fantasy Flight was there to catch it.

Fantasy Flight is now working to improve the game --- will everything be an improvement......?.... that remains to be seen.... but, I fully expect that if GW starts to smell money again, that we'll see them try and yank the license all over ---- For most of us, this has been a fan driven product, and we have really never expected much in the way of support.

Will all the cards and tokens help? Maybe..... I know that I've used index cards in the same manner for years. Actually, I also have some graphic images I put together a while back, and routinely make my own "cards" ---- Graphic image on the back, and whatever on the front. I do question the Stress Track --- especially since one of the statements made was that the new edition was supposed to end the "players vs. the GM" syndrome that is so "prevalent" in our games (yes, I am being a touch sarcastic, as I have only rarely ever seen this issue in 30 years of gaming, and games with the GM vs. Player feel tend not to last long --- no matter what system they are in). I see the Stress Track, which adds penalties to PC's and is totally under the control of the GM, as being the bigger threat of GM railroading than any other tool that has been described so far. If you don't do what the GM wants, your party is suffering "stress". I do know that FFG has a good history with board games --- especially, Descent --- and if they can bring some of the benifits over, then all is well and good.

I am just so hoping that they do not go 4E DnD on this .... and yes, I've heard a lot of people compare it already.... but they are still two totally different scenarios. 4E went way overboard -- to the point that if you look into their published modules and adventures you will not find anything "normal". Instead of wights, they have "slaughter wights" that get a free attack if you reduce them to 0 hit points - and if they hit you, they can use a healing surge to give themself 2d6 hitpoints back - and then, they can roll a d6, and on a roll of 5 or 6, have that power "recharged" and ready to use again, just as soon as they hit 0 hit points.

Everything in 4E now has a special name, and everything, from mindles skeletons, to basic orcs, ect now has a list of skills, and spell-like powers they can use. So far, it does not appear that 3E WHFRP is going quite that way..... although if I see an entry for "Fuzzy Wuzzy Beastmen" with this special power that does whatever once a day ---- I'm giving up on new RP games for good.

Nahuris

Varnias Tybalt said:

since when expressing positive objective conclusions/suppositions about something a lot of people denigrate means being a "fanboy"?

everyone is free to express theyr view, and as well as a lot of people just go on saying this is going to be the ruin of the Warhammer Roleplay, others try to be a little bit more optimisc and to see the informations we have under a more logical light.

i'm not saying what Dave is doing is the absolute right, i just find useless and annoying keeping on taging people expressing logical objections to critics as "fanboys"...

P.S. now i'm pretty sure someone will call me a "fanboy" but this will have no other result has to give credit to what i wrote here... and, by the way, i really do not care if someone call me like that...

Nahuris said:

jadrax said:

To me that post seems pretty sarcastic and over the top, written tongue in cheek surely?

DagobahDave said:

So there's still hope for you then, and with the Emperor's guidance we may yet guide you to the light!