You're missing the point. I'm not debating whether the psychic looks cooler than the kung fu master or not. That's subjective.

The point is, a psychic can kill the kung fu master without lifting a finger, which makes him objectively more powerful. Why? Because in a fight, the real winning factor is the economy of action. That kung fu master may be able to perform a quadruple spin kick, but if he has to fight for his life? He'll stand firmly on the ground and keep punching you in the face, because a punch in the face is superior from the perspective of action economy. If he could defeat the enemy by just standing there, he would, because that'd be even better, every single time.

The same principle applies to Space Marines and tactical marksmanship. Is tactical marksmanship cool? Yes. No. Maybe. Sometimes. Your answer is as good as any, because coolness is a matter of personal preference.

Now, is tactical marksmanship optimal? I'm sure many experts would debate various fine points, but the general principle of developing battlefield awareness, keeping a low profile and having a firm grip on your gun for steady aiming is definitely sound.

But is it optimal for a 6'11" giant clad in augmented armor that can stop small arms fire outright, with reflexes and hand-eye coordination so good he can sustain accurate full-auto fire while shooting from his hip? No, because he's already better protected and able to aim better than the best unaugmented tactical marksman. When enemies can't hope to hurt you, any motion you make to avoid enemy fire is a waste of time. When you know you will hit the enemy anyway, every second spent looking down the sights is wasted.

Astartes are some of the most powerful fighters in the galaxy, mixing robust physiques with iron discipline and decades, if not centuries of combat experience. As such, they shouldn't do what's cool - they should do what's optimal, like any experienced warrior worthy of his name.

Due to that, I find the notion of Astartes fighting the way you propose distinctly, utterly uncool. I have my highly drilled IG regiments for that kind of action, thank you very much. When I play a Space Marine, I want to feel like a proper god of slaughter, not a glorified commando in a bulky suit.

+++++I'm not debating whether the psychic looks cooler than the kung fu master or not.+++++

To an extent I am.

It isn't exactly about looking cooler, but selling it to the audience. You can sell a psychic who does stuff while looking bored and without moving much far more easily in text than in a visual medium. It is a tell, don't show thing.

Take, for instance, Gandalf vs. Saurman in the Jackson LOTR movies:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1Vyhve9gtg

I remember people being unhappy that the fight featured 'martial arts' moves and people being blown across the room. But if it didn't, how would you know there was a fight going on? They look stenly at each other for a bit and then one falls over?

+++++But is it optimal for a 6'11" giant clad in augmented armor that can stop small arms fire outright, with reflexes and hand-eye coordination so good he can sustain accurate full-auto fire while shooting from his hip? No, because he's already better protected and able to aim better than the best unaugmented tactical marksman. When enemies can't hope to hurt you, any motion you make to avoid enemy fire is a waste of time. When you know you will hit the enemy anyway, every second spent looking down the sights is wasted.+++++

But that looks like Robocop - walking slowly forwards with bullets pinging off your armour while picking off targets with well placed shots! You are going to have to explain why they are doing this and why it makes them awesome, and in a visual medium you won't have a chance.

Okay we are talking principally talking about roleplaying games here, but I tend to think of things in terms of movies and video games. And art.

(Also, I would suggest that while Marines may be immune to small arms, the battlefields of the dark future are absolutely swimming with heavy weapons, and even they will need to take cover.)

+++++Due to that, I find the notion of Astartes fighting the way you propose distinctly, utterly uncool. I have my highly drilled IG regiments for that kind of action, thank you very much. When I play a Space Marine, I want to feel like a proper god of slaughter, not a glorified commando in a bulky suit.+++++

Fair enough, but how are you going to sell this concept in a visual medium?

 (Course, there is also no getting around the fact that there is very little I wouldn't think could be improved by adding Tacticool - for instance, you know how the last couple of Harry Potter video games were, bizarrely, cover shooters?

Tacticool. 

Two handed wand stances. Tactical vests for fetishes and spell ingredients, knee pads, and plate carriers holding tablets etched with protected sigils. Tactical wand holsters. Room Entry with wands. Wands with Picatinny rails and red dot sights. Using wizards staffs with a Costa grip…)

AluminiumWolf said:

I wasn't very happy with that scene, it looked too much like two old guys beating each other up with sticks.

AluminiumWolf said:

1. The Marines explicitly are fast and agile, so I fail to see the problem.

2. Explaining that in a visual medium is as simple as showing a Marine casually shrugging off small arms fire. That huge-ass armor is pretty self-explanatory, you know?

3. In case of anti-armor weapons, of course they will evade and seek cover. But that's distinctly different from keeping a low profile all the time. Also, they never really have to stabilize their aim.

AluminiumWolf said:

How about just like it's already shown in Ultramarines movie and games Space Marine and Kill Team?

AluminiumWolf said:

…are you trying to tell me that you didn't think Robocop looked awesome?

 I'm with Ventris on this one. Also, there's the intimidation factor. What's going to scare you more, a giant in armor with a fully-automatic micro-rocket launcher who's moving tactically, taking cover behind stuff and taking the time to line up his shots, or that same giant idly striding toward you, your shots glancing off and doing literally nothing to impede his movement, and not even looking when he points his gun off to the side and blows off your buddy's head? My personal disdain for Costa's method aside, I don't think Marines need that. Now, if they're going up against tanks or heavy weapons emplacements, sure, cover is essential. But then again, I don't think Costa would be pulling the same moves against a tank.

+++++I wasn't very happy with that scene, it looked too much like two old guys beating each other up with sticks.+++++

How would you stage it differently though?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YZeqslOKxU (and even the gurning is optional)

+++++3. In case of anti-armor weapons, of course they will evade and seek cover. But that's distinctly different from keeping a low profile all the time. Also, they never really have to stabilize their aim.+++++

I would argue that they could never know if the enemy has heavy weapons (and indeed the enemy will have heavy weapons most of the time) and so will have to operate as if they do.

+++++How about just like it's already shown in Ultramarines movie and games Space Marine and Kill Team?+++++

I guess I just think if you took motion capture data from:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwkOwAPC2fk

and used it with Marine models, you would end up with something that looks cooler than:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vIQslICeS8#t=5m51s

+++++…are you trying to tell me that you didn't think Robocop looked awesome?+++++

Ah, dude, all he does is stand there and let bullets ping off his armour. That's no where near as cool as Tacticool!

Gaire said:

What is more scary? A zombie lumbering slowly towards you giving you time to line up headshots or an Aliens Xenomorph that moves faster than you can follow?

Slow and lumbering is never awesome.

 No one is saying that Marines are slow! The whole point is that they're strong, durable, and fast. Comparing a Marine that moves without taking cover to a zombie that's shambling toward you is like comparing a cheetah to a glacier. It's wrong, it's dumb, and it wastes our time.

EDIT: Moreover, XENOMORPHS DON'T USE COVER IN COMBAT.

+++++No one is saying that Marines are slow!+++++

Then show them running, doing parkour, moving fast!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2N1TJP1cxmo

Not walking slowly towards the enemy letting gunfire ping off their armour!

 Poor choice of words on my part. Should've used advancing instead of idly striding. That said, I don't think Marines are slow, but nor do I think they should use traditional tactical movement. They'd have their own completely unique way of moving through a battlefield since, y'know, they're not really human any more. They wouldn't need to take cover like us squishy humans, they wouldn't need to line up shots quite the same way, and they sure as hell wouldn't practice gun kata- sorry, completely unrelated, but I watched Equilibrium the other night.

 I'd like to see Marines running full out - presumably in their armour they can maintain a pace that would leave Usain Bolt in the dust over long distances, and nothing is going to slow them down:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7hzyr0tttU

 …Agreed. Although I don't think Marines would be jumping and ducking the branches. Just barreling right through.

On the Lords of the Rings point, its probably important to note that "Maiar" which is Demigods, of which both Saruman and Gandalf were, used up their "essence" to perform magical feats, which is why they almost never did anything magical, and mostly used others to get stuff done.

So, beating each other with words and sticks is fairly accurate to the books.

AluminiumWolf said:

Hi All, thought I'd jsut butt in on this pointless argument.

Kudos for finding some appropriate youtube clips, but if you are stooping and jumping into cover against an enemy that is entirely melee based you are basically just letting them hit your head easier and if you need to aim down gun-sights to hit an Ork at 15 feet then you have not place in the Space Marines.

It's still worth remembering that Costa's isn't wearing power armour, neither is he likely to put on a suit of fake power armour for motion capture purposes so half of what he's doing just isn't going to work.

Likewise they might be capable of Parkour but much of the scenary isn't capable of supporting a half ton of SM in armour.