Plushy said:

And a really clunkly Necron, and a tentacle-monster? I think I know what box you're talking about, it was in the 3rd edition rule book. Though I hope I'm just jumping to conclusions, cause new renditions would be cool.

borithan said:

It was one of those things where GW hinted at it without saying anything more. It's one of the more obscure examples too. I don't even entirely recall where I read it. I think it might have been the White Dwarf re-introducing the Grey Knights in to 3rd edition. When they were just a squad of Terminators, instead of an entire army. It might also be the 40K Fluff Bible (which despite being a huge .doc file compiled from a vast array of sources, is still the definitive source for the 40K universe, decades later… if you can find a copy).

Either way, it's not a new idea, or "fanon" (fan belief that is so widespread it is mistaken for canon). Just really damn obscure and old.

Necrons, I suppose, to each his own. But I don't feel they lose anything going from mindless automatons, to a race that uploaded themselves to machine bodies in a desperate bid to survive galactic cataclysm, and what not (and the current setup doesn't actually negate you the possibility of mindless drones). And that was the typical complaint that I heard about them.

And the fall of the Imperium… well, a while back I went on a bit of a rant in a Black Crusade forum thread, about how the Imperium has survived a lot of galaxy-shaking cataclysms and other hardships (Goge Vandire to name but one). And that I can't possibly see it falling now without the writers just declaring it to be so, Deus Ex Machina.

UncleArkie said:

Maybe that's the joke though. The main GW writers might read /tg/ from time to time too.

Also… damnit I wish I had money for the new rulebook right now~!

Can't recall who posted on the matter, but here's a list of the changes to the Galaxy map from 5th to 6th edition.

Segmentum Obscurus

AluminiumWolf said:

This almost makes me wish this forum had a like button :)

Bleh double post, please delete.

Plushy said:

I just picked up the new 40K Rulebook (it takes me a while to work up the guts to drop $75 on anything that doesn't use electricity…). Speaking of the illo on p.198- look! A zoat! Missing from the 40Kverse since 2nd Ed. The gun and powerfist make it clear zaots are no longer a type of Tyranid, as they were described in 1st Ed. days (you know, back when genestealers weren't Tyranids). I wonder if this means zoats will be making a comeback, or if the illo is just throwing a bone to old-timers…

-And that frog-like thing pictured in close-up- is that a Slann?

I would love to see a Codex: Mercenaries for the new edition, detailing a bunch of minor xenos instead of focusing on a single species. In addition to fleshing out the 40K setting, it would be great fodder for Deathwatch!

Adeptus-B said:

Probably the latter, but you never know. I must admit I didn't spot them in 6th ed, but I did spot a passing reference to them in the last but one Tyranid Codex. Only a sneaky reference, mind, but they were there. Mention is made of bizarre xenos fleet that appeared in Imperial space, claiming they were fleeing oppressors in another galaxy. An enormous war then erupted between the Imperium and these xenos. They're not named, but the war that then took place was called the Zorastra-Attilla war.   

Well, one thing that Storm of Magic for Fantasy gave us was a big list of monsters that could be used by pretty much anyone. I could see 40K getting something similar, that features Zoats, Jokaero, and even Squats, but not something like an actual Codex: Mercenaries (that idea didn't work so well for fantasy afterall).

Adeptus-B said:

No! That's one of the Old Ones (yes, THOSE Old Ones, that created the Orks, Eldar, Jokaero, among others, and probably the Lizardmen from Fantasy). Way back, during Rogue Trader I think, they decided that the secret was they were actually Slann too, you could even buy models for them.

Regarding the whole thing with who the Adeptus Astartes are controlled by; I was under the impression that the Chapter Masters were considered Peers of the Imperium, with the effect that while they are nominally part of the military, they are subject - de facto - to basically no-one; with several chapters only paying lip service to the tenets of the Imperial Faith, even.

 The Astartes Legions were the Emperor's mailed right fist during the Crusades, an attempt to reunite all of humanity under the aegis of reason, logic and science. Whilst Lorgar's misguided writings about the Emperor being divine initially created the Imperial Creed as it is now known, the Astartes are still one of the entities that don't blindly follow the belief in the Emperor as a diving being. Whereas in most area of Imperial society trying to argue that the Emperor isn't divine or that you are an atheist is pretty much straight up heresy, there is still a lack of complete consensus amongst the Astartes.

Chapter masters are beholden only to the High Lords of Terra, in so far as every single member of the Imperium is. Inquisitors may theoretically be able to do whatever they want but it is really the fear of the Inquisition which is their greatest power - requisition of forces, equipment, materials or transportation comes with lots of paperwork and red tape and you always run the risk of being judged by your peers if you wield your power too bluntly.

So yeah, Marines can virtually do what they want unless a direct order comes from the High Lords or an Inquisitor commands them and they can't or won't stand up to them.

Kasatka said:

True, even the most Independent loyalist chapter accepts the will of the High Lords as law. Most can't even imagine going against the High Lords even if all requests sent to their chapter are worded as requests. 

Likewise being outside of the Imperial structure means that the Astartes are not in charge of anything other than their chapter holdings, in most cases this is a single world, in other cases not even that. They aren't expected to feed down down orders to local government, troops, etc. Where Imperial forces or agents follow their orders it is done entirely out of respect (oft fear).

However, how do they get Orders from the High Lords? It turns out that they don't track the location of all of the Space Marines forces, nor do they directly order specific forces be involved in any conflict. The high lords just pass down sweeping edicts to the Departmento munitorium whose fathomless adepts check all records and send out orders to Navel, Guard forces and requests to Astartes forces.

In essence everybody (statistically) is following the orders of the Departmento Munitorium, they get sent all the military intelligence and know the disposition of the Imperiums forces. The only Marines that don't wait for orders from them are those who start their own crusades, headless of where they are going or who where the Imperium is being attacked, but that is few solitary chapters. And rightly so, equally few chapters can survive for long without vast sums of thrones from the the DM and those resources are sorely needed in defence of the Imperium.

Some of them have gotten around it in interesting ways though. Not necessarily intentional, in that they're integral parts of their Chapter battle doctrines and culture, but the benefits of their methodology to independence cannot be denied. The Carchodons live 'off the grid' as much, as roughly 1,000 super-soldiers and their attendant flotilla can, floating up above the galactic plane and swooping down with devastating efficiency. The Black Templars manage it somewhat by being so heavily dispersed that they could be considered a small Legion in their own right (the anedote mentioning them having 6,000 Marines isn't dated) and noone realises it. Even the Ultramarines could be said to have a lot of independence, both because of.. well everything (quick list): having their own damn sector, being ultraloyal, having some measure of influence over probably at least 50 other Chapters, to name a few.

And the High Lords don't usually go ordering around Chapters, no. So most of them only being in tenuous contact isn't a big deal. The High Lords only seem to call out to the Chapters in the really big moments. Like Macharius-sized Crusades, or segmentum-effecting invasions like the Black Crusades or the 3rd Armageddon War.

And yeah, they'll take requests from the Departmento Munitorium, but they're generally free to choose their own battles. Responding as their interests, and any previously made oaths of fealty and alliance dictate (many Chapters are supplied by the Mechanicus in exchange for assistance in the event of attack). Space Marine Chapters really are a force all to themselves. Hell, every 25 years, I think, the White Scars just declare they're going to hunt down an old enemy of the Imperium and kill them. Just because! (though I love them for it)