True words. Once we have the rules figuring out how to extrapolate them into other chapters based on First Founding Geneseed should be doable by most intrepid GMs, those of us who aren't afraid to toss a splash of personal in the game.

The only chapter I see being left in the dark a bit. Are the Grey Knights. But again, a well versed in lore GM could easily come up with their write up, post it to be peached, then post a final version on Reign. With rules for Librarians we should have a Psy ruleset to work off of.

Hell. Due to the nature of my campaign I will HAVE to do just that. My campaign is set to spread across all 3 systems, with the players playing a character from all 3 games that are forced to interact over the metaplot of the DH characters. Each higher tier game will be a less aired game run in vignettes and their motives may not always line up, but my game centers around Malleus. And at least one NPC or a trusted player if I allow will be forced to be a Grey Knight in the DW game.

With the rules for the right 6 chapters and some creativity we can pretty much house rule anything we need til the official supplement comes out.

Alexis

*smiles*

Atheosis said:

Every page of a corebook has to be carefully considered. Different people will have different ideas about what is a priority and what's not - personally I dislike the adventures they include and would rather see that space devoted to something else, but I recognise that some people like them. You'd like a chapter generator in the corebook - whereas I see that as a complete waste of space. I'd rather those seven pages were filled with more stats for xenos, more weapons, more background, more fluff - or even another fully fleshed out chapter. If it's a choice between 5 chapters + chapter generator or 6 chapters and no generator, I'll choose the latter. YMMV

macd21 said:

I'm curious why you would think that would be a waste of space.  Not really wanting to argue about this anymore, I'm just wondering what your perspective is that you would rather have, for instance, one more fleshed out Chapter than have a system for generating many Chapters.  If you're looking for background material there's already a lot out there for all the Chapters they're including.

Atheosis said:

Millandson said it best when he said that it was perhaps to get more of the new players who aren't as familiar with the fluff into the game and then bring in the DIY chapters involved in an expansion.

Yes, we all know the books are pricey, but they're of high quality and I'd rather have a rulebook last for years on end than have the pages fall out within a month of purchasing it.

Yes, we all know there are going to be rules rehashed, but if you're a new player to the Warhammer 40K universe and you find Space Marines more thrilling than being a Rogue Trader or an Acolyte of the Inquistion, would you want to shell out money for those books when you could just have the one you want and be happy?

Yes, there is a lot of information out there on the various Chapters, but do you think new players are going to know where to look for it all? Or even which sites have the best information as well as good online communities? To be honest, I've been playing WH40K for nearly 20 years and while I consider myself up to snuff on the fluff, there were things people here and on other boards posted that corrected what I thought I knew and were quite nice about it. It's the communities that these new people will be turning to for information on not only the pre-made Chapters, but on how to best create DIY Chapters. Would you honestly want one of your new players coming to a game with a whack DIY Chapter?

Atheosis said:

Well, for one thing I'm never going to use it.

What exactly is a 'chapter generator' going to be? It isn't going to generate interesting background fluff with a detailed history and culture. It's going to be a bunch of stat-creation tables. That's something I could do without. I'll either stick with the chapters I have or, if I decide to make up a new one, do it myself. A similar example of what I'm talking about is the Xenos generator for DH. I've never used it, cause it's (IMO) rubbish. A few random tables and some abilities to create an alien - or I could just assign the stats and abilities I think is appropriate for the cool creature I've come up with.

Why do we need chapter creation 'rules'? What is important is the fluff, adding appropriate stats is easy.

As to why I'd prefer the extra chapters to be in the corebook - I don't own a single piece of space wolf fluff. I have no space wolf novels or army books. I may have a few WDs somewhere that I could dig out, but I don't feel like scouring them for SW info. The same goes for all space marine chapters. I could track all that crap over the net, but I'm not going to print that out and hand it to my players to read. Of course I prefer to have it in the corebook.

And finally - I don't think I need to create new chapters all that much. I think that the 6 chapters in the corebook will be sufficient. A few more detailed in supplements will be fine. I don't think that I'm going to create some great new chapter with some interesting traits that make it more interesting than the ones in it already.

Including only 6 chapters in the main rulebook would be a marketing decision, saving attractive material for later books. Core rulebooks sell, further supplements sell increasingly worse. The RPG publishing business isn't doing well. Realising new core books is a survival strategy for a RPG title, not a way to rob the customers. Releasing more chapters in later books would be one way to help keeping the brand afloat. Nobody gets fat on publishing RPGs nowadays.

There is another reason why the Ultramarines should be in, aside from being a pretty good baseline.  The Ultramarines took the Battle for Macragge pretty personally, to the point where they are beginning to specialize in kicking the frak out of Tyranids.  They have likely begun sending more Marines to the Deathwatch since then, not just to learn specialist alien-killing tactics to teach the rest of the chapter when their tour is up, but to be the ones doing the teaching.

The Ultramarines are also quite co-operative as Chapters go. Given that, they're going to be likely candidates for Deathwatch volunteers. Really and truly, this is why the Unforgiven are highly unlikely Deathwatch members, cool as they are

macd21 said:

Interesting point.  The Xenos generator is pretty useless I'll agree.  To me however a system for creating Chapters could be much more useful.  And the thing is I don't want the system to create a bunch of DIY Chapters.  I want it so my players can play official Chapters that aren't getting covered in the core book (without having to sit down with each of them and come up with it all from scratch).  The concept is very similar to the old traits system that was used in the previous edition of the Space Marine codex.  In particular to have a list of a few dozen Chapters with appropriate traits listed (negative and positive) is what I'd really like.  So then when a player says "I just read Brotherhood of the Snake, and I want to play an Iron Snake." I don't have to come up with rules off the top of my head for them.  Or Blood Ravens, Crimson Fists, etc.  In the end I can come up with all myself, and I probably will, but I would've liked to not have to.

All that said, however, you helped me understand the position of others on the subject.  Personally, having Space Marine fluff engraved into my neurons I couldn't care less for whatever background material they put in on all the big name Chapters.  I've read it all before.  Others however seem to differ greatly with me on that.  In fact, to such a degree that I'm beginning to think FFG is probably doing what the majority of players want.  I have to remember that most DW players aren't going to be long-time TT players and readers of BL books.  Oh well.  We all have a tendency to universalize our experiences, and think that everyone wants what we want.  Clearly that is rarely the case.

Cheers.

Tullio said:

I have read something somewhere that suggests that Dark Angels send volunteers to the Deathwatch specifically so that they can allay suspicions by  saying "Look, we're cooperating with the Inquisition, REALLY!"

All these reasons for the Ultramarines to be in the Deathwatch are all very true.  They're not very good reasons for them to be playable in the game however.  Why?  Because where the game is going to take place, assuming it's near the Calixis Sector, is on the opposite side of the galaxy from Ultramar.  So the only way to explain a PC Ultramarine newly seconded to the Deathwatch is to say that he was transported from one side of the Imperium to the other for some reason (nearly 100,000 light years).  With the way warp travel works in 40k, that just wouldn't happen.  I could see an Ultramarine commander being in the game as his long career with Deathwatch could've eventually led him to be that far from his homeworld, but not a freshly seconded battle brother.

The only reason the Ultramarines are being included is for marketing purposes.  It's a very good reason mind you, just not a reason that really has anything to do with the background material.

Lyinar said:

Where did you read such a thing?  The Dark Angels aren't under any real suspicion from the Inquisition as far as I'm aware.

Tullio said:

I don't think that the Dark Angels are in Deathwatch to cooperate. I think they are there to find 'fallen' and take them out before anyone else can question them. Dark Angels have ulterior motives for being in Deathwatch.

The Dark Angels are not under suspicion from the Inquisition. They kill anyone they find that knows they are evil.

Atheosis said:

Except that it happens all the time. During the 13th Crusade, companies from all of the First Founding Chapters took part, most of which originate from opposite sides of the Imperium from the Eye of Terror. If a certain chapter volunteered lots of their Battle Brothers to the Deathwatch, and they had singular experience in fighthing a specific threat to the Imperium (such as Ultramarines and Tyranids), why wouldn't the Deathwatch ensure that their first hand experience and knowledge of the threat was spread across the Imperium as much as possible?

MILLANDSON said:

It happens all the time?  An event the likes of the 13th Black Crusade doesn't happen all the time.  That's a war that threatens the very survival of the Imperium, not a small-scale xenos infestation that requires the intervention of a Deathwatch kill team. 

By the way, the Ultramarines' expertise in fighting Tyranids would hardly be useful in the Segmentum Obscurus.  In fact they would be much more useful in the Ultima Segmentum as far as that is concerned.