@samophange


More likely a starting jedi would still have 100xp but character creation would simply give them X number of ranks in skills and talents by default plus additional force dice.

Then there would probably be some sort of excerpt saying jedi characters are roughly equal to characters with X number of experience.

That Blasted Samophlange said:

This is probably the smartest thing that's been said about the whole issue in this entire thread.

Mechanically, Force-users are going to be powerful than a non-Force-user, but that doesn't mean that a "starting tier" Force-user PC has to be drastically more powerful than a "starting tier" muggle PC.

I've been working on a collection of additional Force Specializations, one of which includes a Jedi Initiate*, and it's not inherently any more powerful than being a F/S Exile would be, though a bit more combat-focused than the Force Shaman or Dark Side Devotee that I'm developing, it doesn';t turn the PC into a superhuman warrior… without spending a fairly hefty chunk of Experience.  Much like the way Force Powers in this game work; unless you devote a hefty portion of XP (at least 25 for Move to make a truly functional attack power, not counting any Range Upgrades) you're not going to be that much more badass than a bounty hunter or hired gun or smuggler in a fight.  But one you've sunk a few hundred XP into said specialization and Force Powers, yeah that Force-user is going to be pretty powerful.  But guess what?  They've paid the XP costs to be that powerful, the same XP that their non-Force-using buddies have been spending on boosting Skills and exploring other Specializations.

I did a few "high level" stress tests using PCs that had 200, 300, 400, and 500 bonus XP on top of their usual starting allotments; said bonus XP was treated as Adventure XP in terms of what you could spend it on.  Only at the 400 XP mark did the Jedi PC (using an earlier draft of my Jedi spec) really start to outshine the other PCs in terms of combat, but he was still pretty focused on being a Jedi where the other PCs had pretty much filled out their initial Specializations and had branched out into others, giving them more options.  In a way, this very well matches up to how WEG intended to handle Force-users; yes it was costly to play one, but you traded versatility for power, which at the lower end of the spectrum worked; the problem only came when people had been playing the same characters once a week for months on end when the system was designed with the idea that you'd only play the one character for a few months (one major story-arc) and then set them aside for new characters.  Hopefully FFG can avoid the same problem, and from what my stress-tests showed, they just might be able to pull it off this time.

*So I like having an option to be a Jedi in my Star Wars games.  Sue me.

That Blasted Samophlange said:

I totally agree.

When playing warhammer 3 we had a similar problem, rename Jedi -> High Elf mage. The way to tackle it was just in game representing the initial learning periode where the High Elf mage is just a mere apprentice.

Similarly, with the initial SW book, you can play indeed a Jedi, just in its very early learning process.

Cheers,

Yepes

Yepesnopes said:

Actually, in WFRP 2nd edition, an Elf Wizard character was still limited to only a single color of magic, but when they reached the fourth and final Wizard career (I think it was called Master Wizard), which for a Human was the pinnacle of spellcasting ability, the Elf would be considered to have finished the equivalent of their Associates Degree and would head off to Ulthaun to start learning the true secrets of magic; this pretty much mean the Elf Wizard's time as a PC was pretty much over.

As I've said to those that whined about how "Jedi weren't playable characters" in EotE (aside from that kinda being the point), there are rules for playing what amounts to an untrained neophyte; simply take the F/S Exile, pester your GM to let you take ranks in Lightsaber as a non-career skill, and then do your level best to actually get a lightsaber.  The best you can hope for currently under the official rules is Padawan-level of ability, which is a Force Rating of 2.

The whole Jedi training regimen that would produce action-capable Padawans is pretty much defunct by the Rebellion Era.  There might (heavy on the might, depending on how close your GM sticks to film canon over the EU) be a rare few Knights and Masters out there willing (the tricky part right there) to train someone in the Jedi arts, but given how much of a negative image the Empire has given the Jedi Knights since the events of the Clone Wars (even painting them as responsible for the three year war as a cover for some grand power-play), said Knight/Master would really have to consider taking on an apprentice to be worth the extensive risk, even if they're making like Obi-Wan and chilling in some isolated in some backwater pocket of the galaxy..

I will point out that this is my own opinion

I kind of like the fact that EotE doesn't have a full foundation of skills, talents and stats to make full Jedi and that there are only low end Force Sensatives I mean we're supposed to experience the Star Wars Universe mainly between episodes 4 and 5 when the empire still has a grip of the universe and there aren't any Jedi or Force Sensitives (except Yoda, Obi Wan, Vader, Luke, Leia and the Emporor) making it all dark and gritty.

If you think about it after the Clone Wars and the fall of the Jedi the Emporor ordered all and any Force Sensitive be killed.

What Im trying to say is that I feel having a full Force using PC Jedi will take away from the dark grittiness players are suppose to feel.

The portion of this discussion that is being left out, to me is the most important… The other traditions that did not get "obliterated"… The Fallenassi, Luka Sene (since the Miraluka were mostly just "confined to planet" not destroyed), The Aing-Tii Monks and I believe the Mutakai were all still functioning during the Dark Times and Rebellion Era. So if anything… They should have provided a bit more "material" for force use, just not Jedi… After all, it is important to note that the Fallenassi were powerful enough force users to conceal there entire planet at times! I think that indicates that they could train a "capable" force user. In my opinion, one of the things I like the most about the Rebellion Era is that force users generally HAD to be trained from some other source. The fact that FFG have not even indicated the existance of any other tradition is in itself a bit odd to me. It seems to strip a lot of the "color" that the Force had taken on.

I am a bit saddened that this system passed up so much of the whole "Force" thing… after all that IS what makes Star Wars unique… Not "laser swords" or "ray guns"… It's the Force… And during the Rebellion Era, force users were still getting trained… Just not as Jedi…

LucianZenlav said:

That all depends on how much FFG wants to deal with writing up all the stuff that has happened based on the EU as opposed to just the Canon material.

Which… Since Lucas Arts has the final say on anything… makes any product with the "Lucas Arts" label cannon… The other RPG's delt with other traditions… I do not subscribe to the movie vs EVERYTHING ELSE cannon debate… Is it licensed? Yes? Then it is legit cannon material… And frankly I find that debate a bit tired… So much of the BEST Star Wars material was NOT in the movies… Galen Marek "Starkiller" for example… Hands down one of Lucas Arts best character creations… Or the story line for the original Knights of the Old Republic… Much better in terms of a compelling story then the original movie… Which was great… but not because of the story… (Yes, All my own personal opinion)

But really… He (King George) has been such an "iron fist" about licensed material recently that… It is hard to say that products outside the movies are not cannon… From what I understand, it was his personal holding up of some of the later WotC books that caused problems for WotC and led to the end of the partnership… I bring that up because A LOT of material on force traditions outside the Jedi/Sith block were contained in those books… and it sounds like he at least looked them over… and said yes…

But stories aside… The Star Wars universe is in part such an amazing creation because it came to extend so far past the movies… To try and contain it there is to do its very creation a diservice… Even these RPG books sit outside "film only" cannon… So the irony gets thicker…

Explain to me why a licensed product from Lucas Arts is not cannon? I am confused… Did all the rest of us suddenly get creative control of the Star Wars franchise? If George OK's it, I have to believe that in the Star Wars universe… That is the word of God!

I guess what I am in favor of is a company giving us as much "hard" data (we know the story… why waste pages) and let the players and GM's decide how far into the various "portions" of cannon they wish to get. I do really feel that FFG dropped the ball on The Force and Armor… Both too large of a portion of EVERY aspect of what attracts people to this particular "fantasy" setting, to have been given the cursory treatment thus far shown. Both of those topics are often treated as "after-thoughts" by people taking up the "Star Wars" banner… And later been sorry for doing such…

Remember all the screaming when Star Wars Galaxies came out about no Jedi… You think that will change with pen and paper?! As a company interested in profit… I would NOT bank on that idea… History has already shown it to be a poor choice…

Again mostly opinion (except the Star Wars Galaxies thing… as a playtester… That is all I heard… everyday…)

So… FFG… Fill my RPG books with solid RPG data… I can watch movies… get comics… encyclopedias… wookiepedia… etc. all to find out back story and setting filler stuff… Your job really should be lots and lots of hard numbered gaming data… First and foremost…

LucianZenlav said:

The rules for Canon are Movies first, everything else second, if at all. That has been their (Lucas Arts) rule for a long time.

There are different levels of Canon in Star Wars, so that if there is a conflict the higher canon generally takes presedence. The only non-canon Star Wars material is some brain meltingly terrible material. I agree that a lot of EU materials are better then the movies. Thrawn trilogy is way better Star Wars then the prequels for sure.

That is until Disney probably drops a nuke on the whole EU in 2015. At that point I will have to cease to support new Star Wars products. Though FFG may be an exception with this game. What little of the beta I played was simply amazing.

Listen… We sit to play RPG's to make our mark on an imaginary world… That alone stands against "cannon"… I actually heard the story that after watching "Stormtroopers", George made the half tongue in cheek remark to that being what actually happened… I think people are far too attatched to cannon… Remember one of the last Episodes of the Clone Wars (as close to cannon as you can get outside the movies… especially since the first episode WAS A MOVIE… If being "one" of the movies is what it takes to be "cannon")… There was a Wookie Jedi… and no… George did not have a heart attack…

Again my point… Give us rules… Force… Better Armor… Etc… and let the players and GM's decide what weird side of "cannon" matters to them. If you try to launch out the gate killing the things that make you unique… You will get swallowed by the crowd… In the case of "Star Wars" games… This is more true than anywhere… PEOPLE WANT TO COME TO THIS UNIVERSE AND BE JEDI… It is part of the appeal… like it or not… No amount of wishing for "old school Star Wars" is going to change that.

It should be kept in the mind of a game designer that some kids trying this game for the first time may never have seen one of the movies… They may have only played the video games… or seen the cartoons (which have been goin for 5 years)…. The Rebellion Era in Star Wars is like trying to sell most gamers on a "Depression Era American Game"… You just took the best parts out… Sure those of us who grew up steeped in the original trilogy, feel nostalgic for those days… but that is not the whole of the Star Wars reality for most anymore…

This game… seems to almost thumb it's nose at all those other experiences of the "Star Wars Universe"

That said… I do like 95% of what the game has to offer… but their 95% only feels like my 50%… And more importantly… It has been shown… No Jedi… No big sales… 

I do believe that if FFG does not lose heart over slow sales of this edition… That their later ones my be truly great! Great ideas… fun system concepts (mostly… those Force Power Charts are a JOKE! Yes FFG a JOKE! And i'd love to explain) Once they provide a more reasonably full rule set (force powers, better armor, ship building, etc…) they will have a top-tier RPG! They just picked a real tough first step… As history has shown…

LucianZenlav said:

Based on what numbers? WEG sold D6 Star Wars for over a decade and most of their material didn't deal with Jedi. WotC had the license for a similar amount of time. Both sold well.

If computer games are your model, then they are a bad model as they aren't roleplaying… They are heavily scripted power games (levels, health, power ups. Which are great for what they do.

Even the various X-wing and X-wing vs Tie Fighter games had to make allowances for novice gamers in their design, which is why shields were so effective in those games when the movies showed them being far less potent. (and they sold in record numbers and had no Jedi in them).

Based on Star Wars Galaxies (just as an example)… Which was roleplaying… And at the time one of the few computer Star Wars games where you could build a hero (which makes it well suited for this conversation)… X-Wing games… Going in you know what your getting… A "niche" Star Wars model… great for telling a specific tale… bad for letting people "get into there place in the universe…"

When people found out they could not be Jedi in Star Wars Galaxies… There was a S***Storm until they changed it… Seriously… Go look back… And in there second outing… They set it smack dab in the middle of the Jedi hayday… They learned the first time…

It's one thing when you are controlling every aspect of the story delivered to a customer… It's another whan you ask them "what role do you really want to be?"

You will not always get "Jedi" as an answer (Mandalorian here)… but you will get it enough that it should not be ignored.

The WEG Star Wars games sold well to Star Wars fans… But not by any real publishing standards… They were fair earners in their time, who were gifted with a die-hard loyalist audience. The system was no White Wolf… let alone D&D, as it did little to nothing to bring in fans of either roleplaying or the movies… Both the White Wolf series and D&D brought new players to roleplaying in numbers WEG Star Wars could never have done… In fact being a life long "Star Wars" nut… I never playerd it… The art was generally bad… and the system was love-or-hate it (I fell into the later)… So none of my friends ever felt intersted enough to learn it.

Most of the Star Wars video games were pre-packaged tales, with little choice as to what "being" you played… When the choice was put out there… People wanted to play Jedi… It is natural… Without Jedi… Star Wars is a relatively poorly written Space Opera… Nothing too special… I do not roleplay to experience "nothing special"….

But… Still I think my point is being missed… Why not give us rules for the Jedi… Other Force Traditions… Maybe even Mandalorian Armor… An Armored Space suit? A lot of Star Wars is missing here… And I miss it… So what if one of those things is Jedi… Lucas pays other people to make stuff up in his world that we can debate the cannon value of… But… I am not asking for money… Just the rules to do it…

Why is that too much to ask? Why is asking for the ability to experience the things that separate my favored "fantasy setting" from other "fantasy settings" a bad thing? It is not… That is the point of these games… The fact that most of you know what I mean when I say: Fallenassi, Mandalorian Armor, Aiing-Tii Monks, Jensaarai (sp?) means the have a peice of the mindshare of this "fantasy"… and deserve to be presented…

So more people can have the experience they wish to have rather then a few….

You want force and jedi stuff wait for the 3rd book as that is all it will be about. They made a concious desicision to not cram everything in a single book so if not having jedi just kills you wait until the 3rd book is released it's really that simple.

Yes the force and Jedi and Sith are a core part of star wars and yes the EU stuff may be "better" than the movies but the VAST majority of people will have only seen the movies. EU stuff will probably be out in a source book very soon after release and isn't what a core book should focus on because a relatively small amount of the people playing the game will have read any EU material.

The core books deal with the 3 major aspects of star wars 1: Cowboys in space 2: Empire/Rebelion 3: Jedi/Sith other material will come out in source books. I'm personally ok with that.

Star Wars products in general are not sold on any single theme defining them except very broadly. People by Star Wars stuff because it's Star Wars. If you only really love one tiny aspect of it then frankly you're missing out in my opinion.