COCLCG said:

It's clear that your deck would be well matched against mzi's (esp. if you know the composition of his deck ahead of time). But there are very few decks with so much disruption (so mzi's plays well against a typical field of opponents), and it would *seem* that including so much disruption would weaken your deck versus many other decks (i.e., a bit of a rock-paper-scissors situation). The extent that this a liability of your deck isn't perfectly clear, of course. Perhaps I'll try play testing it.

oh of course. every deck cannot possibly cater to everything, and like any card game, luck of the draw plays a significant part.

and thats the point i was trying to make. against a deck that doesnt require disruption, these cards then become your resources while the reduced cost / draw from deck / discard / hand character engine plows along ( hopefully ). its got a decent whack of icons to be played solely as an in story deck if needs be, with the occasional disrupt here and there, and doesnt rely on one particular strategy for its win goal, instead letting the opponents deck decide how to go about it. but yes, determining the right method is all part of the trick and why it needs to be repetitively playtested against each deck type to find the required mix. also that knowing the decks composition is not that important. if i see only a couple of weak characters come out, i'll just play enough to beat them in story and hold the disrupts, instead of some who would try and blitz the opponent with a multitude of characters. this deck only trys to JUST win, and thats all it needs to do.

thanks for the comment.

dboeren said:

haha. it was never 20. a FEW score = 60+, so the number is actually decreasing. all valid points mr dboeren. there are no magical decks, and experience with a deck is certainly the main ingredient. i'm supposing i'm just a little miffed that someone slaughtered my deck, and wish to try and put perspective into the picture. haha. and dont take that the wrong way either. im super chuffed that he thought it was worthy enough to try, am only too pleased that he did, and sorry for him that it didnt perform as well as it could have.

i also play around 50 games a week, so i don't think i'll have a problem keeping up with it. for the past 6 months i've lived, breathed and excreted this game. even took a semester off uni to catch up with the veterans. this though ( along with a couple of others ) is possibly my last deck contribution for a while ( and so im defending it !! haha ). i need to get back to life and back bench the game to simply a hobby. im also none too pleased with the new release format as im sooooo not a fan of miskatonic and can't see me even buying the expansion, and don't like the prospect of possibly waiting till this time next year for my factions turn to come up. interest in the game, after that intense period, is waaaannnnniiiinnnngggggg………..

also, sorry if it seemed like i was comparing decks. i didnt mean for that, just using the games as an example of different resource patterns and the difference between playing a tentative low card on table game compared to a pump out the characters as quick as possible, and the fact that the deck can do both to suit the situation.

but in the end, like i said, its really just a waffle not intended to be seen as definitive or all encompassing.

Can someone please explain "FEW score", or provide a link where it's explained?

Dark Initiate said:

no problem. its an archery term ( specifically relating to crossbows ). historically, a quiver held 20 arrows, and in the old old days this was referred to as a 'score' of arrows ( or i should say bolts ). so a few score = a few times x 20.

I don't know if it's specifically related to archery or not, but a score is 20 of something.  Yeah, as far as I know it's an archaic term handed down from England.  You know, the same crazy guys that thought measuring things by the size of the king's appendages would be a good idea :)

If you look at Abraham Lincoln's famous "Gettysberg Address" speech it starts out "four score and seven years ago".  So at least by that time it had passed into common speech here in America and wasn't an archery specific term anymore (if it ever was).

I do remember playing AD&D way back in the day though, and indeed a quiver held 20 arrows or crossbow bolts in the game, so there may be something to that after all.

" im also none too pleased with the new release format as im sooooo not a fan of miskatonic and can't see me even buying the expansion, and don't like the prospect of possibly waiting till this time next year for my factions turn to come up."

Well, we have no idea yet what the ordering will be so maybe it will be sooner.  Someone on BGG is rumoring that Yog will be next, but that's unconfirmed.  I guess I dont' feel like I have a "my faction", so I'm OK with whatever order and anyone we get I feel is useful to me.  I kind of hope Syndicate will be up soon because I think they can use it, and personally I'm less of an Agency fan so it's OK with me if they're later on, but everyone's going to get their turn sooner or later.  My biggest hope/fear is wondering whether Silver Twilight will get an expansion or if they'll decide that the existing one is more or less the same thing so that another is unnecessary.  To be clear, I'd like more Silver Twilight cards please, not for them to fall even further behind than they already are.  If anything, make their box BIGGER than the others to get them fully caught up :)

yes. syndicate next would be nice and might rekindle the spark. my last new deck, the one i'm working on right at this moment, is a fun theme deck named 'the gambler', so having something that includes possible additions to this would be good. yog im kinda fearing. as a faction it was my first love, but only for the recursion aspect. PERSONALLY ( and not in IMO ) i cannot abide the milling strategy, and struggle to see how people gain satisfaction from winning in this fashion as you're not actually beating the opponents deck, and it all seems…… well…… a bit…… cowardly ?? PERSONALLY !! so if they move away from this ill be overjoyed, otherwise it could be a bit of a dissappointment. fingers crossed.

for the first time a couple of days ago i counted the deck lists in my deck builder and there were 68 of them in various stages of refinement, running from theme decks, to combo ideas, to the ones you've seen posted as they are nearing completion, not including the multitude i've deleted as impractical. i think probably 5 - 10% of them include human factions. im definately an old ones kinda guy ( except cthulhu ). so the release schedule will certainly effect my continuation with the game as something else might come along as i wait in a state of stasis, or i might even return to boardgaming as this is my first and only card game.

dboeren said:

I doubt anyone could play my deck as well as I do. When I'm playing CoC against friends we sometimes switch decks and a typical reaction is: "Wow, how did you just manage to win with this crap deck?"

And then of course, there's also the problem of luck: In my first three test games using Dark Byakhee I didn't draw a single Power Drain or Writhing Wall.

So, even if you know the deck your opponent is playing, there's a chance you won't get the cards you need to defeat it.

In the tournament I was mzi's first opponent, so I didn't know what to expect. If I'd known, I'd taken a mulligan after not drawing Snow Graves. He played first and when I took my first turn, there was no telling this was a combo deck. After his second turn it became obvious but by then it was already too late. Only luck could have saved me then.

In my test games using Dark Byakhee, the biggest weakness I noticed was: No investigation. Unless I managed to take control of an opponent's character with an investigation icon I would always fall behind at placing success tokens even if I had more character out. I've also found it's easy to run out of cards with the deck. If Moonbound Byakhee was killed by a Khopesh or my opponent took control of it, I would fall behind in the Terror struggle, if it wasn't neutered by Chess Prodigy, anyway. Now, playing an Ancient Guardian could be a real game turner but in one game my opponent took control of it, causing me to lose after everything seemed to have been decided. Ya Te Veo proved toothless because it couldn't affect skill 3+ characters. Only once did I manage to counter a Khopesh using Burrowing Beneath, in all other cases it killed two or three characters. The most effective card against my deck was Stealthy Byakhee because almost all of the characters have an Arcane icon. And that was another weakness against my deck: It had too few Arcane icons compared to my deck, desperately requiring an Ancient Guardian to make up for it. Guardian Pillar is also a very strong card - if you manage to draw one!

In the tournament Jonathan managed to prevent Master of Myths from entering play in one turn using a Power Drain and saved his hide by cancelling Noden's ability late in the game. Luckily he never drew an Ancient Guardian, but disrupted my play a lot by taking control of my Julia Brown early in the game and using her to good effect for several turns.

To conclude, I don't think it's a bad deck. But I wouldn't play it without making some changes to it that better fit my play-style since I feel it's too defensive. I would definitely add a character with investigation; Amaranth, as you mentioned would be a good choice. I would also definitely either add Demon Lover or get rid of Ya Te Veo, since the latter is otherwise useless except very early in the game. And I'd either add another copy of the Guardian Pillar or use a different restricted card, maybe Sewer Rats or Descendant of Eibon.

thanks very much for that insight jhaelen. it was very nicely explained.

yes. its an old design and i do believe it needs updating to some degree so i agree with you that its almost but not quite there. i have also noticed the lack of investigation icons and my wins are generally based upon a very defensive game while slowly nibbling away at the stories. amaranth is definately clawing to get in there somewhere. vale of pnath SOMETIMES slows the opponents inv successes down but you have to be lucky to draw one.

i don't believe i've ever used ya-te-veo's ability. haha. in the original version it was collector of sacrifices. early on it is a deterent to the opponent comitting and i guess thats why its in there as on occasion with a bad draw it can take a turn or 2 to get mobile. also i felt i really needed a terror / combat character and hastur is pretty poo in that department. i have been fiddling with the 2 cost spots, sneaking in black dog.

i am definately including a 3rd burrowing beneath and will most likely just swap the 3rd thunder card. ive been running it like this for the past week or so anyway and its greatly improved my chances vs the khopesh and other immediate use supports. in truth, when i posted it, i just liked the neat little package that combination made ( 10 x 3 / 5 x 2 / 3-2-3-2 ). haha.

i've found guardian pillar far too uselful to swap it i'm afraid. being able to commit after all other characters is such a mind trick for the opponent and suits the defensive / reactionary nature of the deck.

as always, it does appear to all boil down to luck of the draw. i have been fortunate in my games to either draw the ones i need, or have enough experience with the deck to have saved them. perhaps my deck just knows who its master is !! haha. to be honest, i play with my deck all the time ( hee hee ). a couple of them sit in a hallway and i cant walk past them without picking one up and having a flick through or a quick 3 or 4 turn mock draw.

im also supposing my success with such a defensive deck has something to do with my knowledge of the cards and combinations. its been an intense last 6 months of nothing but cthulhu, to the stage where you can name any card from the huge pool and i'll be able to describe it in full, what it combines with, what other cards i can expect to see played around it etc. hell. name a set of icons and i could probably rattle off every character that has that specific mixture. although i don't really enjoy the humans, i've thoroughly researched all the factions and all the possibilities and likely combinations, to the point where most of the time, based on what i see in the resources, i've been able to name the majority of an opponents deck with no prior knowledge of them.

my mind thrives on interconnectivity and the complex workings of massive systems and just seems to have a knack for it ( a typical INTJ personality trait, hence my past studies in engineering, computer science and now microbiology ). but, singular focus is severely lacking. luckily this strength / weakness translates quite nicely to card gaming. also playing around 200 games a month helps with familiarity of what to expect based solely on the resource cards. at the moment im running at the peak of my performance ( whatever that is ) and now, after i take a break, im pretty sure i wouldn't be able to play this deck without getting right back into it, as without this ability to predict the likely substance of an opponents deck you're just grasping in the dark. so yes. perhaps that has something to do with using this deck properly ( with the luck going my way ), as what you resource and what you keep, and the style you need to play the deck ( as it has a few possible ones ), depends solely on what the opponent has and how he plays. i think the fact that the deck can't be played with any particular strategy or win goal is the hardest thing for someone to get their head around, as most decks have a purpose. be it to get bokrug or glakki out, rush the opponent with characters, pull off a logan / necronomicon combo etc.

also its interesting to note how well a background in playing poker serves you in this game, and i think most would be surprised. ive noticed that during table top games a lot of opponents are focused on what is on the table, whereas i spend the majority of the time watching eye movement between cards in hand and subtle facial expressions that indicate that something is building up or about to happen. everyone has a tell, and not many are good at hiding it.

im definately going to do some work with the deck before my hiatus, and may get back to you with the finished version, though im thinking it might still be too defensive for some peoples playstyles. but, each to their own. if it wasn't this way it would be a very boring game.

thanks again for the comment.

POSTSCRIPT: god i can talk a bunch of crap……… breathe a sigh of relief that you won't have to listen to it for much longer. haha.

yep. well. i think that's the nail in the coffin. and after all that.

just recieved a scan of the new seekers of knowledge, and cannot be bothered reworking all my decks to cater for it without any new toys to do it with, and im not interested in making any miskatonic decks. my prediction though after a brief look is that 'devil's hop yard' is gonna see some more action.

still, it hasnt been a total waste of 6 months. ive designed my own card game in the process, so will switch attention to finishing that off and beginning the playtesting period, and getting back to uni. ill see if by next tournament season whether i could be arsed catching up and defending the title.

ill pop back a few more times to see if theres any responses that need answering, but if not then carry on and enjoy people !!

also i checked my COC email address for the first time in a couple of months and found this little beauty:

Hello, Mr. EDIT: Rhubarb Montgomery,

I'm writing to you because I've received a number of complaints about your comments in the FFG forums. I've reviewed the threads, and while I'm not deleting or editing remarks at this time, I am asking you to alter the tone of your responses to others. The latest complaint I received was about the following remark:

"are you on drugs ?? ( or perhaps its that mind eater sucking out any rational thoughts from your brain )."  EDIT: hey, the guys got a picture of the mind eater card as his avatar and this was meant as a joke.

This is simply rude and will not be tolerated. Please consider this a warning. If you do not refrain from the derogatory comments in your remarks about decks and deck-building, I will be forced to edit and/or delete your posts and potentially your account. I know you've been an active forum user and have contributed much to the discussions, so I would prefer if you could simply moderate your own approach to the communication. Thank you.

Sincerely,

JoshFFG Forum Moderator

looks like some people have been crying to mummy !! haha. it made me laugh though so thanks.
 

jhaelen said:

this might be a good idea but before i go i'll tell you a little story about why i'm so afraid to play with 3 x unique cards.

it was a coupla months ago, when my games tally sat at a measly 30 total instead of the 500+ that it is now. id done my months worth of solid research but for play time i was basically still a newbie. and then i met Tom Capor on lackey ( you know that guy - world champion and all - haha ), and we played a few games over the course of a few days.

first 4 or 5 and i got creamed, but watching the playstyle and learning from him instead of just trying to win was a slingshot of leaps and bounds by miles in my own playing ability, and i'm thankful to him for this rare insight, and the player that it has helped me become.

but then it happened. and statistically speaking it was bound to and isn't really a reflection on either of our playing abilities. around game 5 or 6 against him i had a dream run, had him on the ropes, my vale of pnath was doing his head in, i was flush with the oncoming victory. 2 stories my way and 3 successes on the 3rd. characters equally matched on the board and it was my turn. it didn't matter what i drew, as long as it was something i could put on the table, and there it would be. defeated the world champion. id started making my paper mache trophy with a magnus card on top to celebrate. he'd next to given up, but as is a hallmark of a champion he said he'd fight to the end.

so, smile on face and with happiness in my heart i drew my next 2 cards……….. to reveal the 2nd AND 3rd copy of the vale of pnath.

NOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooo…………

you only get one chance against people like Tom. and mine just dissolved like the asperin i would soon be taking after beating my head against the wall repeatedly. i couldnt do anything for the turn, and slowly he clawed back to take the match.

i never saw him again after that……… and all i am left with is a half completed paper mache mound of broken dreams that reminds me of the day 3 uniques choked my chance of a world champion victory. hahaha.

so yes, i DREAD the thought of that ever happening again. i know, what are the chances ?? but murphy is always waiting around the corner.

POSTSCRIPT: im presuming Tom agreed to play with me because as an under financed australian i had no hopes of ever making it to a major competition, and it was an ideal testing ground for some of his decks ( one of which was the misk / hastur deck he ran at the warm up to the north american championships i believe ). for all my blathering, i have an ingrained sense of dignity, honor and respect, and i would never reveal anyones secrets, and by disabling spectators he was assured that nothing that was seen would ever leave the 'table'.

this invitation goes out to any players that would like to give their decks a last run before worlds, and if they want to arrange a game via lackey then id be more than pleased to trial it for them, and i will play as many games as they like against a variety of decks as a last bash ode before i take my leave. it is a bit outdated and missing the last 2 AP's, but i've already played one of the quarter finalists from the european championship and we simply substituted a couple of cards.

COCLCG said:

Are you sure, you can commit the Guardian Pillar after all other characters are committed? I feel the card's wording doesn't support this, actually. It reminds me more of the wording on Y'Golonac, than, say, Dirk Sharpe.

good question. i just read it as exhaust and it does so. doesnt really matter as ive obsoleted this deck, am no longer happy with it as its getting creamed by my new decks, and i havent played it for a few weeks. but useful to know for the future.

jhaelen said:

FAQ:

Does Guardian Pillar’s (Dreamlands
F78) ability allow it to be committed
outside of the normal phase when
characters can be committed to stories?

No, Guardian Pillar’s ability allows
it to be committed as a character to a
story. This is during the normal timing
window when characters are committed
to stories. Also, it is important to note
that Guardian Pillar is no longer a
support card while it is a character,
and that it does retain its name and
uniqueness

Ah, thanks, so it's even in the FAQ!