Kasatka said:

*taptap* Are we still in this topic? The OP asked how to make characters who can survive tough encounters. After some discussion, I said that Int and Fel are tetriary characteristics as Int has special classes for it and a character can solve Fel based stuff without rolling anything and playing the game smart (like not jumping into all sorts of messed-up shenanigans). Not to mention that Fellowship and Social are relatively rare Aptitudes, so your social advancements will be expensive too. Especially in this case, when everyone advices STs (who have neither). 

And boy, what about respecting each other's opinion ;)? I know, it isn't fun, it can't generate flame wars and endless rants, but hey at least we can keep the topic clean and on the rail!

AtoMaki said:

I think I'd actually agree with you here, if we were talking about DH or BC. In those games PCs will normaly be by themselves in combat situations, so while Charm/Deceive is probably more important outside combat situations than in OW, it doesn't help within actual combat encounters.

In OW on the other hand, your Regiment and your relationship with it will directly and seriously influence nearly every single combat encounter. In a normal OW where you aren't playing some kind of elite squad of Transhuman fighting machines, most fighting will be happening as part of larger operation while working together with multiple other, mutally supporting forces. In OW, unlike the other games, your ability to be on friendly terms with your supporting squads, the Medics healing you between combat, the Mechanicus priests keeping your gear in order, or the mortar squads giving fire support, will directly, noticeably, and lastingly, influence a PC's ability to survive a tough combat encounter.

AtoMaki, you have to realize just how untypical things like playing High Threat Tactical Assault Teams or resolving "Fel based stuff without rolling" is for most OW groups.

I actually have to admit that I don't think I have ever played a game before OW where charm/deceive type skill actually affected your ability to survive a tough combat encounter, so it's not something most people will think of when they start playing OW for the first time. Doesn't mean that it isn't true in the specific, and maybe even unique, case of Only War.  (I agree on Int though)

tl;dr: we are still on topic

Gokerz said:

Yes. And this is why you don't want to roll Deceive/Charm… Because when you do, then you are screwing someone up. And that's not friendly. Not at all. Generally, as I see it, you build your positive relationships with being The Nice Guy. And not rolling Charm every time you think you can. 

Except of course if you want to build some sort of "star of the regiment" character. Then you will need Fellowship and social skills. But I think this case is out of the OP's interest :D. 

And hey, nobody is a superhuman around here! Every character in our current OW Squad is a bog-standard guy with 2500 starting xp and that's all. Believe me, this High Threat Tactical Assault Squad is much more punishing (especially to my Medic) than you would think ;). 

AtoMaki said:

I think we have different interpretations of what using charm or deceive means from an IC perspective.

For me, Charm isn't some form of mind control or hostile social attack. Using Charm is being the nice guy. In my opinion, If you try to be the nice guy without actually having the charm skill, you will not be seen as the friendly guy trying handing out amasec from the goodness of his heart. You'll be seen as the creepy weirdo that thinks he can 'buy' everyone's good will by handing out stuff.

Deceive is more of an edge case, but functioning as part of the regiment will sooner or later require you to work together and depend on people you find personally revolting. Killing them or avoiding them is not really an option, so being able to play nice and hide your true opinion of them will be important to fit in. To pull this back to the skills specific applications to survive tough combat encounters, Deceive will often be the skill that decides if you can make your squads situation sound dire enough over the vox that reinforcements comes now, not in an hour (and later help you make everyone belief that this was the right call).

^I dunno, but if it is really the case, then the whole Imperial Guard is a massive organization of creepy weirdos, because Guardsmen lack the Charm and Deceive Skills… And personally, I don't think that it is the case. I mean, the NPCs are not static props waiting for the interactions of the PCs… Nothing stops NPC Joe to try to befriend NPC Jimmy with his astonishing Fellowship score of 25. 

And if Charm/Deceive is a "PCs only" thing then wouldn't you essentially force the players to use them? Like: "Either you have Charm/Deceive and good Fellowship or you are a social monstrosity and nobody loves you!". That sounds rather… unfair IMHO.

AtoMaki said:

I think for OW, as is the case for every rpg I have ever played, the rules are not the setting. They are meant to facilitate interesting play, not allow realistic simulation of everything that happens within the setting.

In the case of the 40k rpg, this is explicidly the case. A few years ago I sent a question to FFG about Goliath ships in Rogue Trader and why their main objective of harvesting plasma was so hard that by the rules an average Goliath would be destroyed every third time it harvested plasma. I got the following answer from Sam Stewart:

"[…]In other words, the rules provided here are for vessels crewed by player characters, in order to make the experience challenging and not without risk.[…]"

A game system that is able to plausibly simulate everything that happens within the setting would be extremely awesome, but though many have tried, no game has ever succeeded. Some tried really hard.

tl;dr: Assumably, NSCs don't roll charm/deceive against each other. Same as the NSC crew of a Goliath normally doesn't have to test if it gets destroyed when harvesting plasma. Same as NSC Navigators don't use the rules for warp travel provided in RT unless going up against a PC ship (just imagine if they did. The Imperium would be functionally impossible, so high would the rate of destroyed or lost ships be).

(Edit: Note that at least in my games, rolls on charm to foster good relationships between members of the same regiment would get pretty big boni, especially if backed up with a bottle of Amasec. Enough that even Fellowship 25 guardsmen would have a fair chance at succeeding, as going through hell together means a lot and creates an enormous amount of trust and goodwill. Giving a good description of what is being done and said by the player would increase this even further.)

Gokerz said:

Pretty much this is what we do too, but without forcing Charm in. It would be like 200xp "well spent" to unlock the "socially eligible" PC condition and never-ever come back again (what is pretty much my original point). 

I think that in the end of the day it's all down to the players and what kind of game you are playing. If you are having a straight up gun riot then Fellowship and Int becomes a dump for most players. If you are focusing more on interaction with the company then suddenly they become more important. It depends what the OP thinks the GM is going to do. If you boost for mad combat (penitent storm troopers?) then will he mess you up with some social challenges? If possible 2 combat tanks and then 1 medic/communicator should mean you can hit any reasonable challenge and have at least one person savvy enough to deal with the other aspects. Although if the GM is that detirmened to mess  you up then you are in trouble anyways.

With regards to the other discussion occuring. I prefer to run with a mixed group. My players are an interesting mix, 2 prefer heavy fighting, 1 is a bit of a mix and the last is happiest when doing the actual role play. So the 2 fighters will dump everything in the combat stats and skills and will come alive during the heavy combat. The mix is leaning towards medic / tech and I will be sure to throw in some tech based stuff for him to do. Finally the role player is looking at a sergeant role. So he will get several encounters with commanders, logistics, other units, locals and so forth.

Personally I think it's better to have some good conflict within the Guard armies as well. Perhaps it's a frosty relationship with another unit from another regiment for some reason. Then you have to work together to take on the xenos with a strained relationship. The twitchy commisar, the jealous squad, the suspicious locals all of these are great encounters that help flesh out the Guard and the characters beyond just being Guardsman No3.