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You are here: FFG Forums /  Miniatures /  X-Wing

X-Wing
Take control of powerful Rebel X-wings and nimble Imperial TIE fighters!
Moderator: FFGStuartFFG_IanGecko Topics: 1420 | Posts: 17193
Neat B-Wing model changes orientation.
by Panic
Published on 12 November 2012 - 11:28:04
Page 2 of 2 (29 messages) « First page... 1 2
Reply #16 | Published on 17 November 2012 - 01:52:48

 Assuming you're interested in the details, gravity is an acceleration. The force on an object is the product of the object's mass and the accleration due to gravity. (Newton's second law states F = ma, or in the case of gravity, F = mg, with g being the gravitational acceleration).

When an object (like a car or a ship) changes direction, the passengers want to go in a straight line (Newton's fist law). In order to remain in the cockpit rather than go right through the seat as if it wasn't there, the ship exerts a centripital force on the passenger, changing the passenger's direction. This change in direction is an acceleration.

When the rate of change in direction (the acceleration) is 32 feet per second per second, that's one "G". (the same acceleration due to the force of earth's gravity at sea level.)

That's what they are talking about when they say "the pilot made a 1.5 G turn" or similar, and works in zero gravity the same way it does in atmosphere. It's the same type of thing that keeps water in a pail when it's upside down if you swing it over your head fast enough.

Of course, ships in space have no use for wings… but as a previous poster said, star wars and physics aren't exactly friends.

Without Signature

Reply #17 | Published on 17 November 2012 - 10:38:06

Some quibbles with your physics there.  First, gravity is a force which is proportional to the masses of the two objects and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them (given by the equation F = G*M1*M2/r^2).  On the surface of Earth, the distance is close enough to constant and the Earth's mass is constant so that you can consider all but the mass of the other object as constants which gives you the simplification F = mg.  While it is true that the force on an object is (usually) equal to its mass multiplied by its acceleration, it is generally more accurate to consider forces as causing acceleration rather than acceleration as causing forces.  Easier to see with the full version of Newton's 2nd law which states that the time rate of change of an objects momentum is equal to the net external force (F = dp/dt), which simplifies in many cases to F = ma.

But your description of "G-forces" and why they would still work as normal in space is right on.  I think somewhere in Star Wars canon ships have a device to cancel out G-forces so that they can do cool maneuvers without having to think about physics.  It seems to me that the B-Wing's only real benefit from the rotating cockpit would be in pilot orientation (it would allow the ship to keep 1 direction as "up" and make recovering from spinning easier and such things).  It also allows the ship to maintain right-left symmetry (like all of the other ships the pilot might be used to flying) and still be able to land (which is what I suspect made them do that in the movie in the first place).

Reply #18 | Published on 17 November 2012 - 11:33:23

 Thanks for that! I'm stuck in Conservation of Momentum this week, and could't recall the exact full Equation F = MmG/r^2. I'm pleased that you took the time to correct my description.

Hooray for Physics nerds!

By the way, just seeing F = dp/dt on a game forum makes this physics nerd smile.

Without Signature

Reply #19 | Published on 17 November 2012 - 12:28:27

Another way to think about it is the units of measurement:  32 ft/sec/sec or 9.8 m/sec/sec

This the foot (or meters) per second per second is an acceleration expression.  So every time you accelerate or decelerate, you feel some sort of simulated "G-force".  That's because you are changing the speed or direction of the vehicle while your body "wants" to keep going the previous direction (see Newtonian physics).  That's why certain roller coasters create wacky experiences with gravity and why sharp turns in a car means the car goes one direction and you seem to slide or are pushed against the car door.

 

Now onto X-wing, or any space or air flight…  Any time you accelerate or decelerate, you will feel something akin to gravity:  That's just the change in speed over time…

 

Meh, the previous posts said it better…

Begin the chanting, "Dominus!"

Reply #20 | Published on 17 November 2012 - 12:39:45

Surtur said:

Vonpenguin said:

 

I thing that's because the cockpit is meant to remain on the same orientation, allowing the ship to manuver without putting extra gs on the pilot.

 

 

How does that make sense in 0 gravity where you have no orientation and your guns are drastically changing firing angles while your ship is constantly moving about you? Damn it b wings, can you see what you made me do? You made me try to bring logic to Star Wars!

How do TIEs make that horrifying scream in space? o_O

He who thinks only about himself will destroy himself.

Reply #21 | Published on 17 November 2012 - 13:37:15

A: There's a speaker in the cockpit with the full collection of Ben Burtt's effects which play on cue as the ship flies by. It's a Pilot Aid.

B: All the rebel pilots use the same ringtone, and when they see a Tie Fighter they All call each other.

Simple Physics.

Without Signature

Reply #22 | Published on 17 November 2012 - 13:40:33
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dbmeboy said:

Some quibbles with your physics there.  First, gravity is a force which is proportional to the masses of the two objects and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them (given by the equation F = G*M1*M2/r^2).  On the surface of Earth, the distance is close enough to constant and the Earth's mass is constant so that you can consider all but the mass of the other object as constants which gives you the simplification F = mg.  While it is true that the force on an object is (usually) equal to its mass multiplied by its acceleration, it is generally more accurate to consider forces as causing acceleration rather than acceleration as causing forces.  Easier to see with the full version of Newton's 2nd law which states that the time rate of change of an objects momentum is equal to the net external force (F = dp/dt), which simplifies in many cases to F = ma.

But your description of "G-forces" and why they would still work as normal in space is right on.  I think somewhere in Star Wars canon ships have a device to cancel out G-forces so that they can do cool maneuvers without having to think about physics.  It seems to me that the B-Wing's only real benefit from the rotating cockpit would be in pilot orientation (it would allow the ship to keep 1 direction as "up" and make recovering from spinning easier and such things).  It also allows the ship to maintain right-left symmetry (like all of the other ships the pilot might be used to flying) and still be able to land (which is what I suspect made them do that in the movie in the first place).

ACCORDING TO STRING THEORY!… I got nothin. You win the science off.

Without Signature
Reply #23 | Published on 17 November 2012 - 14:55:43

Yeah, sorry… that was probably too minor of a quibble to be worth posting…

Personally, I hope they find a way to make the B-Wings "vertical" because that's how they flew in RotJ.

Reply #24 | Published on 17 November 2012 - 15:09:37

 Heck no, there was no sarcasm in my comment at least - Your comments are correct. I figured someone on here would 1-up my physics.

Without Signature

Reply #25 | Published on 17 November 2012 - 15:18:52
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dbmeboy said:

Yeah, sorry… that was probably too minor of a quibble to be worth posting…

Personally, I hope they find a way to make the B-Wings "vertical" because that's how they flew in RotJ.

No need, I was just trying to be silly. :)

Without Signature
Reply #26 | Published on 17 November 2012 - 17:18:10

 In Star Wars space battles, the G forces come from the same place as the engine and laser sounds.

Reply #27 | Published on 18 November 2012 - 01:37:38
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If I recall correctly the cockpit spinning was Kenner"s idea reusing mechanics from a former toyline that seems to have been absorded as cannon…

Without Signature

Reply #28 | Published on 19 November 2012 - 11:27:07
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Surtur said:

Well objects in space are subject to momentum still, it's just hard to tell you're actually moving as there is no other force such as gravity or friction to give you a relative point. Acceleration is from a force just as gravity causes force to be applied to an object. So when you turn or change speeds you would feel some G's from that, but going in a straight line at constant speed would feel like nothing.

True, momentum would hardly matter going in a straight line at a constant speed, but they're rarely going to be doing that in a battle if they want to stay alive. In a fight they're going to be changing speed and zig zagging (is there a 3 dimension version of zig zaging?) all over the place while trying to hit TIE's and avoid being hit themselves.

Without Signature
Reply #29 | Published on 19 November 2012 - 11:28:04

MarkNorfolk said:

 

I seem to remember it was B for 'blade' as with it's S-foils open it resembles a dagger.

Acceleration would have an effect on pilots in space. Objects under acceleration behave as if under gravity (as I remember from my Physics of Star Trek).

 

All the background for the b-wing I've read says it kicks out some top grade firepower so I'm hoping that the rules reflect that being in front of a b-wing is the worst place to be!

 

Cheers

Mark

Wait Physics may exist is Star Trek, but nothing so limiting exists in Star Wars.

Without Signature

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