goldbach said:

there is no option for lannister to keep riverrun 1st turn. I suggest rethinking your strategy.

best case:

footman (stoney sept) -> riverrun with support of lannisport (+1 token) = total 5 strength.

greyjoy's response:

knight -> riverrun (+0 token) play "Balon Greyjoy" power 2 (The printed combat strength of your opponent's House card is reduced to 0) and use the blade for the tie (which greyjoy wins)

perhaps you missed that.

In fact here is the script for you to win everytime with greyjoy over Lannister:

Greyjoy order script

TURN 1

PLACE ORDER TOKENS

(march -1) Ironman's bay
(march +0) Pike
(consolidate) Greywater Watch
(consolidate) Port of Pike

RESOLVE TOKENS

10 Pike(march +0) knight -> Riverrun
11 Pike(march +0) footman -> Seagard
12 ** Is there a combat? if NO, skip to line 20
14 Play "Aeron Damphair" card
15 If Lannister played "The Hound", play "Victarion Greyjoy" and move into Riverrun
16 If Lannister played "Tywin Lannister","Ser Gregor Clegane" OR "Ser Jaime Lannister", play "Euron Crow's Eye", destroy lannister's unit and move into Riverrun
17 If Lannister played any other card, play "Asha Greyjoy", destroy Lannister's unit(s) and move into Riverrun

20 Ironman's bay (march -1) ship -> The Golden Sound
21 ** Is there a combat? if NO, skip to line 30
22 ** Is "Aeron Damphair"in your discard pile? IF yes, skip to line 30
23 Play "Aeron Damphair" card
24 If Lannister played "The Hound", play "Victarion Greyjoy" and move into The Golden Sound
25 If Lannister played "Tywin Lannister","Ser Gregor Clegane" OR "Ser Jaime Lannister", play "Euron Crow's Eye", destroy Lannister's ship and move into The Golden Sound
26 If Lannister played any other card, play "Dagmar Cleftjaw", destroy Lannister's ship and move into The Golden Sound
27 Skip to line 40

30 If Lannister discard pile holds "The Hound", play "Euron Crow's Eye", have fleet destroyed and take The Golden Sound
31 If Lannister discard pile holds any other card, play "Victarion Greyjoy" and move into The Golden Sound
32 If Lannister plays "Tyrion Lannister", play "Dagmar Cleftjaw", use the Valyrian steel blade, have fleet destroyed and take The Golden Sound

40 End the turn, Lannister is done (for).

Summary for turn 1:

Best case for Lannister (to consolidate):

2 knights, 1 footman in Lannisport
1 ships in Lannisport (port)

Worst case for Lannister (doing anything else other than consolidate eg: attacking Riverrun):

1 footman in Stoney Sept

TURN 2

If mustering comes up:

Siege (Riverrun)
2 footmen (Pike)
ship (Ironman's Bay) from (Seagard)
upgrade footman to knight (Seagard)

PLACE ORDER TOKENS

(march +0 or +1) Riverrun
(march -1 or +0) Pike
(consolidate) Greywater Watch
(consolidate) Port of Pike
(support +0 or +1) Ironman's Bay
(support) Seagard
(raid or raid*) The Golden Sound

Lannister now has in lannisport:

2 ships (port)
3 knights (Lannisport)

RESOLVE TOKENS (best case for Lannister)

The Golden Sound (raid) on Lannisport (port)

10 Riverrun(march +0) knight+siege -> Riverrun
11 Play "Balon Greyjoy" and use the Valyrian steel blade(if needed) and enjoy Lannisport.

I understand there is only the defense +2 token that can stymie this method for occupying Lannisport turn 2 upon muster, and if that is your playstyle i suggest the Pike footman rides to riverrun turn 1 with the knight. The script was designed for all outcomes in mind (muster, no muster, alliances and such)

This however requires Lannister to do nothing but consolidate turn 1. if he doesn't. he loses Lannisport turn 2 if a muster comes up.

Something that I noticed from this thorough dissection of the Greyjoy bid for Lannisport, is the dearth of defensive Lannister house cards. The Hound is excellent, but beyond that, only Tyrion offers some potential defensive guile.

I suppose offense is the best defense at times, but in the desperate scenarios outlined above, time is in short supply!

MarthWMaster said:

Have you read the books? Yes, in single combat Jaime was nearly unrivalled, but he was still a very skilled and competant commander. Tywin gave him 30,000 troops to ravage the Riverlands with and it was only by complete surprise that Rob Stark was able to defeat him, and still at considerable loss. Also, Gregor's men were not at all adept in the field and he was well known as an overly harsh and foolhardy commander. No, I think its simply a failing on FFG's part. If I seem overly harsh, its because I have already payed them for a game that is clearly incomplete. The LCG is balanced, fun to play and still stays VERY true to the books. Im not sure how they missed the mark with this one.

Thanks for reposting that here, Jhagen.

21 ** Is there a combat? if NO, skip to line 30

should read :

21 ** Is there a combat? if NO, skip to line 40

feel free to copy and paste this to a txt file and print out.

the issue is not with the lore (as nice as that is) or the gameplay (thats good too). IT's the freaking playtesting. I played a half dozen games beforeit was clear that Greyjoy facerolled Lannister.

In the hands of a dilligent and capable player. Lannisport falls on turn 2.(on a muster)

No diplomacy needed, cause noone can reach Lannister to help them.

FIRST MOVE, 2nd turn and Lannister's game is done.

I suggest using Lannister,Stark,Tyrell and Martell for 4 player games. Add Baratheon for 5 player. and placing the Martell 5-man garrison in Riverrun for 6player games.

I think I addressed this in my second post (yes, I forgot about Balon in my first post).  Greyjoy can take Riverrun in hist first turn.  However, they cannot hold it in the second turn -- unless they commit their entire army to doing do, and if they do, then Seagard is open to an attack from Stark -- and Eddard Stark has two swords.

In the first few turns, Lannister can focus 100% of their attention on Greyjoy.  Greyjoy is forced to focus their attention on both Lannister and Stark.  Greyjoy can absolutely make the game miserable for Lannister -- but not if they want to win.  It's the mutually assured destruction that should keep Greyjoy in check.

goldbach said:

it is unfortunate you have not played with skilled players.

Stark has no reason to overextend themselves to Seagard. Stark has no hopes of holding it. save for attaining the 7th castle for victory on his push turn. otherwise support of it can be cut too easily.

and yes Greyjoy can hold Riverrun 2nd turn against Lannister.

for example:

Assume Lannister both musters and consolidates for 3 knights in lannisport. and attacks riverrun with a +1 token from lannisport for a total of +7

Greyjoy:

Seagard supports with a knight (2 total strngth)

Ironman's bay supports with a ship (3)

Riverrun has 1 knight and 1 siege (thats 5, and now you have Balon to tie and have the sword on top of that to boot)

then the whole shabang has to retreat back to Lannisport and then Greyjoy resolves his march order and takes Lannisport with a knight. and destroys all 3 routed knights. and takes the 2 ships for his own.

As for mutually assured destruction, that is laughable at best since Greyjoy has 4 castles and strongholds withiin 1 move of riverrun. and they own lannisport first move of turn 2. and there will be 1 lannister unit on board with your strategy. excellent work.

jhagen said:

My group gave this game another chance last night and switched out Greyjoy for Tyrell. This made the game feel much more balanced and even though one of our players is a chaotic wild man most the time AND we made him take the Lannisters, he still did decent and the overall feel was much better. Im not gonna bog it down with stats or a blow by blow. Baratheon did still seem to be in the best position but it get it to within acceptable levels so we can enjoy a strategy game in this genre.

Jhagen, I am intrigued by your 4 player setup and I think I will offer that up next time to see if it will improve it further.

 Disclaimer: I have played once and it was as baratheon. I am not intimately familiar with each card but believe I have a grasp.

It has been clearly stated that lannister can not hold riverrun in the first turn against a determined greyjoy, and jhagen has posted the "surefire" strategy to always win riverrun first turn and destroy lannister. 

Using Jhagen's script, the greyjoy has placed march - 1 on his ship and march - 0 on pike.  

Meanwhile, lannister placed march - 1 on stoney sept, support +1 on golden sound, and march +1 on lannisport. 

Please remember: Lannister acts first on the first turn and may play 3 * order tokens. 

Order of events in action phase:

Lannister resolves the march -1 to move the footman into lannisport.

Greyjoy resolves march +0 to move knight into riverrun and footman into seagard.

Lannister resolves march +1 into riverrun with 1 knight and 2 footman. (4+1 = 5 strength). support +1 is added from golden sound (now 7 strength). Kevan lannister is used (I am not sure if he is 2 or 3 or 4 strength but its irrelevant). Kevan adds 2 more strength for the footmen (9 strength) and lets say 2 for himself (11 str). 

So greyjoy has played damphair and may pay 2 power to switch him out for... balon greyjoy? balon would increase the knights strength to 4 total and reduce lannister strength to 9. Euron would increase greyjoy strength to 6 but leave lannister at 11. Even if greyjoy had marched both the footman AND the knight into riverrrun this would be insufficient to withstand the lannister attack. 

Actually, the support isnt even required in golden sound. You can play a defense + 2 in golden sound. That way when greyjoy attacks golden sound he is starting at -1 to your +2 and he no longer has aeron damphair so might have to blow balon or euron.

Anyway, if someone can tell me where I am wrong, feel free. Sure, its a lot of effort to win riverrun but thats a stronghold for you and 1 less for greyjoy. 

Also, dont forget lannister has the raven and can switch out one of those orders if he sees something different shape up. Finally, the lannister player should be making every overture to stark to take advantage of a preoccupied greyjoy and start moving in from the north.

 I was worried when I saw that this area of the map looked so much like the first edition. This was the #1 issues that needed to be fixed. #2, that Baratheon Has it too easy has also been mentioned. That neither of these have been addressed undermines the entire point of even making a second edition.

Hopper2k said:

thanks for your input, and save for a point here or there your counter to the script is sound with regards to it.

But remember, you are countering my script only. with respect to a all out assault on Lannister.

Historically (in now close to 2 dozen games played with only one 3 player game) Lannister token orders are:

Golden sound = raid or support

Lannisport = march +1 or consolidate*

stoney sept = march +0 or support +1

Lannister either tries for riverrun with the knight from Lannisport with support from the sound, or just spreads out taking as many open lands as he can.

stoney sept almost always rolls into harrenhal for the guaranteed muster point.

after a few games the Lannister player realizes the futility of trying for riverrun and just consolidates in Lannisport to stave off the iron tide.

 The counter to your move orders is to:

consume march -1 token in Ironmans bay and not move, allow Lannister to roll into riverrun. then faceroll them once they land.

kev lannister is useless on the defense. so the lone knight from Pike can land. follow script for card playing.

.....

next!

Again, Greyjoy can take and hold Riverrun from Lannister, provided they want to commit 100% of their army to doing so.  The problem is that doing so leaves their flank open to Stark, who can take Seagard (and kill a unit or two in the process).  Once Stark removes the support from Riverrun, it leaves it open to an attack from Lannister.

I find it difficult to believe that a "skilled" Greyjoy player can defend on two fronts.  I also find it difficult to believe that a "skilled" Stark player, when seeing the opportunity to damage their most powerful neighbor, would not take advantage.  Stark can absolutely take and hold Seagard, especially considering the damage he and Lannister can do to Greyjoy's army when taking Seagard and Riverrun.  It's hard to mount a counterattack when your army has been killed.

Greyjoy has to defend two fronts almost immediately, and is the only player that has to do so.  That is why they need more powerful cards than the other players.

A central piece of strategy in this game is for each player to provide a check on their neighbors.  If your neighbor is committing a lot of troops to attacking their other neighbor, then you should take advantage of the weakened front and attack them.  That is what a skilled Stark should do.  Otherwise, if Greyjoy becomes powerful at Lannister's expense, then Greyjoy will go for Winterfell, and win the game.  A skilled Stark should not let Greyjoy get too powerful too easily.

goldbach said:

sigh.

play the game with stark more than 2 times and you will see what is the standard play for stark:

turn 1.

march +0 in winterfell

consolidate(*) in white harbor

ship march +1 in shivering sea

this is to spread out to power icons to command the bidding tracks, make a quick bid for adjacent sea areas to barratheon and build a ship unit in port to support it.

OR

Consolidate(*) in winterfell

march +0 in white harbor

ship march +1 in shivering sea

similar to the above strategy, white harbor moves to moat carin. and winterfell builds ships on both coasts to support agains barratheon and greyjoy.

Stark cannot win the game with arms, (he would have to take seagard or harrenhal to hit 7 victory points)

but he can control the game with his massive supply of power icons and easily defended borders. easily hit 5 or 6 victory for the final turn for a sleeper win.

what stark cant do is take and hold seagard. it is a bottleneck attack from moat carin. (which is starks ONLY support location) and can be assaulted and supported from no less that 2 other adjacent regions possessed by Greyjoy in the first turn.

Starks objective (long term) is to hold his own against greyjoy and barratheon, take the northern provinces, stockpile massive armies. then pounce late game for the burst to 7 victory.

I agree with you in general about Stark's long-term strategy -- it's just that they are very unlikely to achieve that goal if Greyjoy gets too powerful too quickly. 

Having won as Stark multiple times, I must say that I'm not a fan of the first turn Mustering in Winterfell.  There's a 5/9 chance that Mustering will occur after Round 1 anyway, which reduces the advantages gained by doing so quite a bit.  I prefer to march the units out of Winterfell and grab resources -- including moving my Knight to Moat Cailin.  I agree with you that moving the boat to the Narrow Sea is a must.

The scenario in which Stark takes and holds Seagard is the scenario in which Greyjoy is overextended into both Riverrun and Seagard.  Greyjoy cannot defend both, and will take casualties -- thus reducing the likelihood of a successful counterattack on the next turn. 

Of course, Stark shouldn't attack Seagard unless it's not being defended well enough by Greyjoy.  However, if Greyjoy is defending Seagard, then Lannister should have enough power to take back Riverrun, so it's a moot point.