H.B.M.C. said:

What happened to the "systems are compatible"►

DH has Lathe Hyper-Density Penetrators (+2 Pen, -50% range, lose Scatter, gain Tearing, if hit roll +10 Toughness or knocked down (IH p147)), which go beyond RT slugs'' (+1 damage, +2 Pen). And are harder to get, too.

For the astartes shotguns, Rites of Battle has Penetrator rounds (+5 Pen, lose Scatter), Shredder rounds (+1 Pen, gains Tearing, doesn''t lose Scatter) and Slugs (lose Scatter, gain Tearing and Felling (1)).

In the end, which gun is best doesn''t matter since the space marines use boltguns for more then simply practical reasons. They use them because of religious beliefs / ideological indoctrination. And for those, reality doesn''t apply.

H.B.M.C. said:

Seriously► I am taking a slug, an item that is popular IRL, has been houseruled MANY times into the game as it is such a logical round to have and we finally have SOME official stats for it. And the gun I am putting it in, is a DARK HERESY weapon. The problem of balance is a DARK HERESY weapon, not a the RT ammo, the RT ammo isn''t unbalanced, the DH weapon is. And it is not like slugs are rare or overpowered in DH or IRL.And for the most part, RT and DH gear is pretty interchangeable. Yes, some stuff is very powerful in RT, but once you get above ''rare'' the average acolyte isn''t going to get it.

H2SO4 said:

What happened to the "systems are compatible"►

DH has Lathe Hyper-Density Penetrators (+2 Pen, -50% range, lose Scatter, gain Tearing, if hit roll +10 Toughness or knocked down (IH p147)), which go beyond RT slugs'''' (+1 damage, +2 Pen). And are harder to get, too.

For the astartes shotguns, Rites of Battle has Penetrator rounds (+5 Pen, lose Scatter), Shredder rounds (+1 Pen, gains Tearing, doesn''''t lose Scatter) and Slugs (lose Scatter, gain Tearing and Felling (1)).

H.B.M.C. said:

Oh the games are certainly compatible, but my point was that you cannot complain about the balance of a gun when in order to gain that imbalance you have to take rules from a different game. It''''d be like saying that an Astartes Assault Cannon is completely overpowered… when I give it to the mooks in my Dark Heresy game. Well no shit! 

And yeah, I know about the Hyper-Density Penetrators. They''''re also quite expensive and bought by the round, which gives them their own internal balance.

BYE

 

Speaking of stuff from BoJ that is overpowered and should not be allowed in the average campaign- my players just loaded up on those shields that add +4 to your existing armour. I wish I would have had the foresight to ban those! Combined with above-average armour, they render the bearer basically immune to most weapons- and even some of the lesser daemons! Those shields have massively narrowed the range of opponents that I can throw at my players and have them feel challenged. So, yeah, I highly recommend- based on my first-hand experience- that you also ban those shields from your games along with the mega-shotgun…

While 1) I think the Pen in the DW errata for shotguns was a typo and 2) the slug penetrator round thingies were not designed for the errated stats (otherwise you could have shotguns with almost as much Pen as a lascannon), even if they were accurate the Astartes would not use them as their main weapon.

Because, outside of specialized circumstances, their range is far too low to be viable military weapons. The max range of a shotgun is 120 meters, i.e., about 400 feet. That's pitiful. A boltgun can shoot over three times as far, with far more accuracy.

Well, I saw a Devastator using one repeatedly, comboing it with a stormshield (a very un-Devastator combo). The rest of us didn't use them because 1) most of us hadn't realised their potential and 2) those of us who did didn't for purely style reasons. Space Marines use bolters, not shotguns (most of the time).

You're right that "realistically" they are not terribly generally useful weapons. However, in the context of the game they are unbalanced. Certain players will choose weapons purely on effectiveness. Yes, the range hampers them, but RPG combat doesn't tend to happen at ranges of several hundred metres. Deathwatch is more likely to have longer ranged combat than Dark Heresy and the like, but playing it for several months solid I never saw a single fight which was more than 200m apart at the start, and most probably started at less then 100 metres. Those distances quickly closed (particularly for those with jump packs, which are also one of the reasons melee is overpowered in Dark Heresy). Having a weapon that was mainly useful for only those distances or less wasn't much of a handicap.

My DW game has lots of fights at over 200 meters. That's where somebody with a heavy bolter or lascannon wants to be.

That said, I agree that both the Book of Judgment Elephant Shotguns and the DW errated shotguns are silly. That Pen MUST be a typo in the errata (and it's not the only one -- see combi-bolter). Give it a Pen of 0 and it's more rational.

Cymbel said:

Where are these rules on slugs and flechette shells? also, i cant find where it says you can use bolt shells? if so id use them, but according to my book you can only use them in bolt weapons. did i miss an eratta?

Adeptus-B said:

the megashotgun you talk about isnt even that great honestly. not compared to the vanheim which gets an obscene amount of damage. 

regardless, everyone has their quirks, but if i read correctly, the shield youre talking about is primitive anyway. also, they only protect the front and then only the chest and one arm, head if in motion, legs if stationary. that means if you equip one of your guys with a sniper rifle and make him a deadeye shot you can pretty much blow their arms heads or legs clean off. youre too easy on your guys. hope i helped make your game a little more interesting!

dont ban weapons from games on percieved stat imbalances. the "mega shotgun" only gets 2 shots compared to the vanheim. yeah scatter makes it more. and yeah, it can pack a wollop, but its not the end all and be all. if bolts were cheaper, id use bolters instead. 

Commissar Vladimir said:

There are a variety of different types of shotgun shell in the Rogue Trader sourcebook Hostile Acquisitions, which includes solid slugs, flechette shells and customised bolt shells for use in shotguns (they're not particularly reliable).

Commissar Vladimir said:

The Synford-Pattern Lockshield isn't Primitive, it's +4 Armour to most locations, basically turning flak armour into poor man's power armour (or power armour into poor man's terminator armour!). My group has mostly guard flak or Enforcer carapace, so the addition of the shield has rendered them immune to most standard weapons unless they luck out and hit the right arm… Yes, there are gimicks that can overcome this (such as every cultist cell suddenly decicing to start employ snipers), but I'm not happy about being limited to that finite set of gimicks for every encounter from now on. And I'm not happy about the sheer number of adversaries I've largely lost access to. Goodby, warp zombies! Goodby, plaguebearers! Etc…

-And the Arbites Shotgun from BoJ does double the minimum damage of the Vanahiem. But that's beside the point that pointing to another broken weapon doesn't make this one not broken. Add to that the fact that in 40K lore, Arbites use standard combat shotguns, loaded with special ammo, and not shotguns that dwarf boltguns, and, yeah, I'll be banning both those things in my next DH campaign…

Adeptus-B said:

Have things come at them from the sides and the rear. I imagine the shields would affect their maneouvrability somewhat too, whats that you say, the only way over that bridge is moving precariosly over those struts as the rest of the bridge is pretty much ruined? Youll need to use both hands to get across effectively…etc. Gases dont care about shields, also if an explosive lands behind them and explodes the shields wont help much .

On the subject of Shotguns I too am a little wary of the Arbites combat shotgun because of its stats. It seems obscenely powerful at a glance

Adeptus-B said:

Zombies, plaguebearers and others are all fine, you're just not using enough of them!

Even the weakest possible opponents become a credible threat, when they can swarm you. Shield's no good when you get shot or stabbed in the back. Enough opponents and eventually someone is going to get hit in an exposed area. No need for snipers, if you throw enough bodies at the problem, shooting from high and low, both sides and back. Remember the "ganging up" -bonus, it gets mean really quick.

Large enough rabble of peasants armed with torches and pitchforks will ruin even an armoured knights day. Just let your players know how the numbers are stacked against them beforehand so they know a frontal assault will end in tears and they need to come up with something more intelligent.

In addition, I would imagine clever cultists to use landmines, tripwires, ambushes, malayian tiger-traps, molotov coctails, boobytraps, brainwashed suicide bombers, psykers, satchel charges and grenades, gas leaks, live wires, etc.

A shield will not save you from cobbled together flamethrowers either. And dim-witted true fanatics among the cultsmen won't mind getting detonated by their own poor quality crappy McGyvered-together weapons made to prepare speficically against onrushing Arbites. I would imagine any credible cult-leader capable of hiding from the them to be also prepared for the eventuality of the Arbites' assault.

Heck, if your opponents get to melee range, they can just rip the guns from your hands and turn them against you.

Besides, the Synford-pattern lockshield only gives the +4 armour bonus to legs if standing still or head when moving (in addition to the arm carrying it and torso). So its wielders aren't really invulnerable. Also, while the shield has a firing port where "you can shoot a pistol or basic weapon without penalty", doesn't using a basic weapon with only one arm produce a -20 penalty, unless modded with an "extra grip"?

H2SO4 said:

I have, out of necessity, started using the Horde rules from Deathwatch in major encounters. But I'm going to miss the days when my players could be intimidated by a few minor daemons, or even some cultists with autoguns. I knew this day was coming (my players make no secret of the fact that they are saving up to buy power armour), but I thought it would come closer to Ascention level…