First: The following is *NOT* meant to imugn your reputation -- it isn't that I don't believe you, it's that I don't believe *them*.

Pour Le Merite said:

"The map is not the territory" -- and a computer simulation isn't reality. I could list any number of projects where "the math" said it was possible, but in reality it didn't work.

And I could also provide a laundry-list of cites demonstrating the complete unreliability of "eyewitness testimony", but it would be simpler to just let you look it up for yourself.

Pour Le Merite said:

Given the Nazi propensity for Lying, and that the effects of Mach-1+ travel were known before the actual event (wind tunnels, etc.), it's more likely this was an attempt at propaganda,  and/or misinformation ("let the word spread that we have a fighter which can travel over 200 MPH faster than anything the enemy has; maybe then, they'll back off"; but then, Adolf's bunch were never known for their solid grip on Reality).

Like folks say on the 'Net: "Pictures, or it didn't happen."

Agreed, and that  line about Adolfs bunch having a loose grip on reality has to be the understatement of the century!

kaufschtick said:

Past a certain level of Stupidity, words fail.

And my posting a "Facepalm" Demotivator here would be annoying (and considering my complaints about posts full of pics, hypocritical as well :) ).

csadn said:

After Willy Messerschmitt's death, the former Me 262 pilot Hans Guido Mutke claimed to be the first person to exceed Mach 1, on 9 April 1945 in a Me 262 in a "straight-down" 90° dive. This claim is disputed because it is only based on Mutke's memory of the incident, which recalls effects other Me 262 pilots observed below the speed of sound at high indicated airspeed, but with no altitude reading required to determine the actual speed. Furthermore, the pitot tube used to measure airspeed in aircraft can give falsely elevated readings as the pressure builds up inside the tube at high speeds. From Wikipedia.

"The airspeed indicator was stuck in the red danger zone, which is over 1100 km/hr.

I noticed that rivets began popping out of the tops of the wings.

The airplane began vibrating and shaking wildly, banging my head against the sides of the cockpit.

After diving about three miles I again regained control and was able to return to base.

On the runway the mechanics were very surprised by the appearance of the airplane, which looked as though it had been shaken by the hand of a giant."

www.vho.org/tr/2003/1/Chelain69-71.html Here is a page discussing it. True or not true, this is not a nazi propaganda thing and as I said: It is possible. And it is something that are still being discussed by engineers right now. it may or may not have happened but don't just think that the pilot was a nazi so it can't be true.

Somehow this thread got hijacked, but no matter.

It is possible that the Me-262 broke the sound barrier, but without a better account than the one we have, we may never know.  I tend to discount the claims of others that this was mere propaganda, as the propaganda machine of the Third Reich had broken down by this time; Hitler had a mere 21 more days to live in his bunker.  As alluded to by others, Welch broke the sound barrier in an F-86 prototype before Yeager, but he, like the german, was in a dive.  Yeager broke the barrier in level flight.

It's like arguing over whether the Wright Brothers were actually the first to fly...maybe they were, maybe they weren't, but they documented it correctly.

Pour Le Merite said:

OK, I see what happened to him. No, he didn't actually break the sound barrier --  at least, not entirely.

If you can find a copy of Martin Caidin's _Fork-Tailed Devil: The P-38 Lightning_, he devotes an entire chapter to the problem the P-38 had with compressibility in high-speed dives. The quote you cite matches point-for-point descriptions of US test aircraft which experienced this phenomenon. Part of  the phenomenon involves *sections* of the airflow past the wing going supersonic, which causes the buffeting and damage described; as well as the effects going away once he'd dived to lower altitudes (three miles being some 15,000-and-change feet).

(If I can find my copy, I'll see about citations.)

     After a few (very) quick games it seems everyone still wants to play WOW for the main part. Since we take out the Explosion Damage card so our games play longer I guess we're into the dogfights and survivability of the WW1 version. Although I did pick up a Spitfire.

     And I think we're going to tinker around with the DOW Ace abilities. 

Necronis said:

Hmm, ignoring that card could be an ace ability... Something like "Luck". Richtoffen himself got fuel all over him when his fueltank was hit but it didn't start to burn so ha was able to land with his engine turned off.

 Personally I love the original, DOW, added some cool concepts to the game that feel like an improvement in technology, rather than just pasting a WWII theme over a WWI game, such as throttle rules and 2 phase turns. But after playing it I think I prefer my Sopwith camel, to the Spitfire any day. And while WWII is certainly a more popular Genre that WWI, I think that it is also one of the original game's strengths, being that there are plenty of Second world war games, but in the main stream Wings of War is is one of less than a hand full. 

ghost81 said:

I agree. Also is WW2 kind of taboo in some places while WW1 is more or less politically correct.

But my main reason to prefer WW1 dogfights to WW2 is that WW1 was more the lone knight (like Boelke and Immelmann) and less huge groups tactics. For the perfect WW2 game you should each control 3 planes or something like that but DOW and any other game I played is a bit to complicated for that to work.

Don't get me wrong, DOw is still fun but I think I would prefer a more tactical WW2 game, some mix between DOW and Battlelore. But it might just be me, I really like WW1 aircrafts.

Also was most WW1 dogfights a lot smaller than the WW2 fights, heck, sometimes there were 100s of planes involved in dogfights in WW2. A scenario like that would be almost impossible to coordinate in DOW. Of course did the WW1 have a few large groups like the Richtoffen flying cirkus but even them were tiny compared to most WW2 battles.

When we play we use a single Jasta against a french Escadrille and a few brits. Considering that we are 4-7 players on each side that works well with most of the dogfights during the great war. And while WW2 had it's share of smaller dogfights too it still feels DOW only captures a small part of the war for me. Therefor I prefer Wow in front of DOW..

But of course are there many WW2 nuts out there and it is good that there is a version of the game for you too :) But I think it will be a long time until I start a WW2 campaign. It would however be interesting with a strategy version of DOW.

     The games here average 3 per side and the feeling is DOW has an edge in player enjoyment. Dogfights are fun and personal, as opposed to getting flamed at long range by cannon fire. But that could just be our group. I for one am happy to be flying my Camel again.