i'm not denying that there was a point SOMEWHERE there within the self glorification, but it could've been done in a much more succinct and humble manner.

COCLCG said:

The irony of your post is thick.

this is what i read.

"i went to the tournament in liege and since i was the only one who knew how to use the khopesh, i was the only one who made it to the top 4 with it"

"i never play CoC and only do large tournaments but am good enough to win them anyway"

"i built my deck on the plane ride over and still won"

"since then i've built 5 decks even better than this one, without the khopesh"

"if i built a deck for someone, i wouldn't include khopesh as they wouldn't be able to discern how to play it"

 "these are all my tournament wins, and the amount of khopesh like cards included in my decks"

 "i won a tournament using a tech that i created and was later named 'jump tech' "

"oh, and by the way, the khopesh isn't broken ( but really its hard to tell because no-one knows how to use it but me )"

Hellfury said:

hey, i am what i am and don't deny it. people jump all over my posts when i dare to sound egotistical and that's cool with me. but when i call a spade a spade suddenly its sacrosanct.

COCLCG said:

whatever, miss morisette.

 The author might have been more humble. But his analysis is still valuable, and bragging when youre contesting current meta seems like a way to be treated seriously, especially when its not made up and you realy are a good player that saw sloppy Khopesh plays.

I really cant see how can this powerfull of a card that costs 2 be not worth it. Even early when its not that powerful you can still play sth like Gibbering Soul with khopesh and trade them for 2 opponents characters and a search. Or wait and see if opponent has support control. Maybe not first or second turn, as there are more important things when character cnt is low, and one targeted deep one assault can get rid of both character and khopesh, but later on making youre weakest characters deadly seems to be a solid play (no characters that lose its function late game in tournament play?)

And there are really not that many cards that can get rid of it directly (missed any?) :

Burrowing Beneath
Deep One Assault
Thunder in the East
Grasping Chthonian
Jade Salesman (for cost 3 and possible counter be sacrificing this i wouldn't play khopesh)
Political Demonstration

Dimensional Rift :P
The Dunwich Horror :P

The problem might be killing the guy that wields it, but he gets additional toughness, would be nice to have toughness on him in the first place, so it forces a destroy card or short fuse, still not worth it? If it doesn't get destroyed fast it gives powerful control - any nice effecst no toughness character will not see the day to use his ability.

What analysis shows this is not worth it? Are other restricted cards just better?

.Zephyr. said:

Some other restricted card are better. For many reasons. It's not just the cost of the card and the effect it brings that make Khopesh good.

You also have to take into consideration the amount of cards it takes to make khopesh good.

For instance, Descendent of Eibon is good on his own. He doesn't require any cards to function. Same thing with Magah Birds which not only gives you a 3 for 1 deal, but it is extremely cheap and gives you card advantage along with thinning your deck by 2 more cards making drawing other cards fractionally more efficient.

The most efficient way to get the effect of the khopesh is to play it on a character that enters play for free, such as a being of ib or a chacater that jumps into play for free like Dreamlands fanatic. You are only paying two resources for causing two wounds. This is pretty efficient but not as efficient as a single card that does a single wound. The reason why is because it doesnt require a second card in order for the effect to be realized.

If you want Khopesh to be really good, then you need to pay a higher cost (say 4 for a Hideous guardian which is off suit and requires a different type of resource) or to add another card into the mix in order to play it cheaply (say twilight gate which is another off suit card). The more expensive or more extensive the engine becomes, the less efficient it is in the short game.

This is one of the points that Graham is trying to make. There are more subtle reasons why the card is good and not good and why the entire issue of "Khopesh is broken" arguments amount to nothing more than "Fetch Stick part II, Electric Boogaloo".

I have never disagreed that Khopesh is powerful. The entire argument regarding the format of Destruction tactic being too uber I feel is valid.

But I do think that any competent player can find a way to combat it with the tools they have at their disposal within their deck if they are aware of the card. It transforms the meta, but it doesn't break it.

While Khopesh is definitely no Master of the Myths and needs a deck that is designed to get full use of it. It might make already strong destruction impossible to stop.

The two combinations i think make sense for Khopesh centered deck are Cthulhu-shub or cthulhu-yog.  Shub because of shocking transformation, cheap strong and tough ghouls to defend early and shocking transformation to get stuff like Terror of the tides for cost 3. I'd also add 1,2 Logans, as shocking transformation into this guy wielding two Khopeshes gives you 3 wounds without killing him and nice surprise char that can serve a while, Heroic is a problem, but i think the benefit of making Shocking a card that gives 3 wounds is worth trying, especialy as when he gets 4th wound Khopeshes return to deck and he goes to discard. 

Yog is good because of twilight gated Hideous Guardian. Its not reliable but is crazy 4 wounds available from turn 2. The deck has to have normal "Cthulhu-Yog" destruction with many angled things, Cursed Skull, deep one risings, deep one assaults etc. But in late game one swipe of the khopesh can clear the board of all thats not invoulnerable. And yog can bring back those Hideus gueardians with Opening the gate or other discard searches if desperate.

Cards like Duch courage help only temporary, just wound all to 1 and deep one assault/grasping cthoninan the support.

I dont really see how Khopesh doesnt make already strong destruction much better.

[I dont play that well, just theorycrafting, i wonder what makes those ideas not work that well]

PS magah birds are banned :)

PS2 and descendant of eibon should be ;) [i wonder if i end up wanting to ban half the card pool :) ]

>> I'd also add 1,2 Logans, as shocking transformation into this guy wielding two Khopeshes gives you 3 wounds without killing him and nice surprise char that can serve a while, Heroic is a problem, but i think the benefit of making Shocking a card that gives 3 wounds is worth trying, especialy as when he gets 4th wound Khopeshes return to deck and he goes to discard. 

Khopesh of the Abyss is unique, controlling more than one unique card with the same title forces you to (either discard or sacrifice or destroy, cannot remember on the top of my head) the excess copies.

>> [I dont play that well, just theorycrafting, i wonder what makes those ideas not work that well]

The time it takes to setup such configurations while under pressure.

.Zephyr. said:

You missed Thief for Hire, which is very effective for not just taking the Khopesh out, but for making a very resilient and dangerous Thief.   Beyond that, any targeted character removal, or untargeted character removal if the Khopesh-wielder is the only one out, will work.  Lord Jeffery Farrington works like a charm, for instance.

I generally agree, however, that by and large the Khopesh is worth it; the only real question is if it is more worthwhile than other restricted cards.  Versus unrestricted cards, depends on the deck, but in many decks, it's almost an auto-include.

The main problem with it, I think, is the cost.  Cost 1 and 2 cards are potentially very powerful, because they can be cast on a secondary domain rather than the primary domain.  Once a card hits cost 3, it forces difficult decisions regarding whether or not to drain the primary domain (3-3-1 domain setups can happen I suppose, just not that frequently).  As such, a lot of decks are built around having almost nothing but cost 1 and 2 cards, and in that light, Khopesh is enormously powerful, as it delivers a lot of firepower while staying at the magic cost 2 limit.  Bumping its cost up  to 3 would have balanced it, I think.

.Zephyr. said:

PS Thanks. I knew that already. It was used as an example to illustrate how some cards are clearly better and why.

PS2 Judging by your recent opinions about cards, it seems to me that there are a LOT of cards you appear to think should be banned.

Which is why the lesson of Fetch Stick should not be forgotten… lest it be repeated by the newer community again.

 IMO say small erratas would be enough.

I'd get Khopesh exhausted after use and remove restriction - then card wont be capable of clearing the table but still usable destruction/control that will eventually kill enough to be worth the price.

And forgot about unique, orginal idea i heard had Logan getting some other toughness support. I wanted to improve it by removing useless cards from deck but it didn't work (you cant even put into play/take control of/etc of another copy, not sure there is wierd enough interaction to break it, possibly not so i guess it should go back to where it came from) Other candidates are FleshWard/Getaway Vehicle for +2 but its neutral/wrong color; Heavy furs but even worse color and only +1; Patrol wagon, bad color but you get +2 and "pay 2 to cancel wound" that n this case is "pay 2 to deal a wound" :) In the deck i'd do i wouldnt bother those cards problems, but maybe in top notch deck drawing such support is a disaster and having 2 logans is enough of a threat to get wrong cards.

Hellfury said:

Many of us were not around in the CCG days, what's the deal with Fetch Stick?

I've heard the name, and vaguely recall it was considered a strong card, but that's about all I know.

I'd never seen Fetch Stick before. Yipes, that card is awesome.

Back on topic, though. I have to agree with most of the assessment in here. Khopesh is annoying as $#!+, but if you can't deal with it, L2P. It's not like The Large Man + Offer You Can't Refuse, so it's… manageable.