Let me start by saying that I may be very contradictory here and if I am, I apologize up front. J The truth is that I am looking forward to this book so that I can test it out and tell a few games revolving the scoundrels of the out rim. Even with the star wars saga edition, I told a few non Jedi tales that were in line with this products theme and they went rather well.

With that said, I believe that FFG’s is making an awful mistake by limiting themselves to such a great extent with this release. At the end of the day, I am sure that the biggest complaint that will come from fans on this board and in reviews outside of its fandom will be the lack of high Jedi adventure. Even my group who has played in a game like this that I have told is vetoing the game because of its Jedi marginalization. (Not because the games I told were bad but because we kind of got that part of Star Wars out of our system) It is not just my group either. The local (large) gaming store I go to told me that they found that many people who did play testing were unhappy with the lack of Jedi (though they liked the rules).

In truth, other than reading on this board (which I did throughout the beta) I have not spoken with anyone who is supporting the None Jedi narrative that EotE is telling. Unfortunately, I strongly agree with the many pro-Jedi posters on this board and on this thread and this is something that I think cannot wait until 2015. That is way too long for such an important aspect of Star Wars in my opinion. (Yes, I know that West End Games did not have a strong Jedi emphasis however, I also didn’t think WEG was very good.)

I'm not going to argue what is canon and what should be fired out of a cannon as I personally thought the force unleashed was a complete waste of my time.

 The people working on this game, have a very clear vision of what they wanted as a game.  The people working on this version of the game seem to be Star Wars fans, and felt that hey, lets make a game about the Han Solo type of character.   

LucianZenlav, you seem very passionate about what  YOU want in the game and you cite that FFG have left out a lot of stuff and I quote  "Why not give us rules for the Jedi… Other Force Traditions… Maybe even Mandalorian Armor… An Armored Space suit? A lot of Star Wars is missing here…"

I will agree with the fact that they are leaving out Jedi and other force traditions, but the force is still in the book (as far as the beta book shows).  As far as other things that are missing, such as Mandalorian armour, armoured spacesuits, and lots of other gear, well.  The core book isn't out yet.  How do you know what will or will not be in there?   Barring Jedi of course, they could have all the fancy gear one needs.

In my personal experience, for every person who seems to be a Luke Skywalker fan, there is one who is a Han Solo fan.  Now if you go with old story telling cliches about the hero getting the girl, well, that makes Han Solo the hero of the Star Wars movies.  Edge of the Empire is, i feel, trying to get some of the people who enjoy a little show called Firefly.  It's not Star Wars, but it is massively popular - and it features a crew of smugglers, hired guns, and people from all walks of life, just trying to live out in the raggedy edge.  Away from an oppressive government.  This is the game the developers wanted to do first - it's also they easiest.  You get more focus on personal ships, such as freighters and snub fighters.  Blasters, and the like.

Sure, things like the x-wing are going to be left out, but that's because in this time period the game is set, the ONLY x-wings are in the hands of the rebellion.

LucionZenlav you may be jumping to conclusions about the impact the WEG RPG had, and how it didn't sell well by publishing standards.  Which publishing standards are we going by?  The ones that see books such as the god awful twilight series or fifty shades of grey selling well?  Is this the standard?  Because if so, then NO rpg anywhere is selling well.   Also, when the the original WEG books came out, there wasn't as much in the way of Internet.  RPG's are a very Niche market.  They always have been.  Star Wars is a Niche market as well.  So, a Star Wars RPG is a niche in a niche.  A very small group of people are interested in these products.  We as RPG players would like to think that we are legion… but we aren't.  Today there are so many things to grab our attention, being video games, books, youtube cat vidoes, etc.  SO when you say the Star Wars RPG didn't have the numbers in sales or people playing, did you factor in distribution methods, time period, or other quantifiably and imperical data?  Or are you factoring in what you've seen, which will be clouded by how you feel.  You see, I never played the WEG star wars either.   

Much of what you are asking for also seems to be hard codified rules for particular items.  Such as mandalorian armour.   Reading up on Mandalorian armour, it would at best have the superior quality.  Probably, heavy battle armour.  That's it.  This rpg is fairly light when it comes to rules.  What you are asking for may be in the CORE book that ISN'T OUT YET.  

My final point here is that, the people working on the RPG are working hard, and have a very limited number of resources available such as space in the final product to include the necessary lore, gear, rules, races, etc.  They have a clear vision on what they want to accomplish with the inital book, which I agree with.  While it would be nice to have everything all at once in a 1200+ page book, it isn't going to happen.  We live in a world where everyone wants everything all the time and right away.   But the reality is this isn't going to happen.  Have patience, there will be official rules for what you want fast enough, and until then the community will build them, or you yourself could be creative and do it.  The book is being written, they layouts are being finalized, it is all but finished.  Arguing about what SHOULD be in there isn't going to change what is.  You must either accept that or move on.

LucianZenlav said:

Galaxies was a pretty massive $h!tstorm. <opinion>

It was practically impossible to play a Jedi until after they macerated the combat system. <fact>

Galaxies was set in the middle of the Rebellion era, which is approximately the polar opposite of the "Middle of the Jedi heyday." <fact>

-WJL

LethalDose said:

I think the "middle" comment was pointing at the newer Star Wars mmorg The Old Republic. There you can play Jedi, Sith, bounty hunters, etc. But that shows just the slippery slope that I think FFG are trying to avoid. As has been said, you can't have everything out of the gate as the book would be massive. "I want Jedi." "I want Sith." "I want Imperials. " "I want Mandalorians." The list goes on and on. This isn't WotC where they can fire out 15 books in a matter of a few years by rehashing a system already created. This is a new game with new mechanics. I like that they are taking their time, choosing what to focus on, and, it seems, trying to put out a product that will play well.

I am a huge, if admittedly nostalgic, fan of the original trilogy. I saw it first hand too many times to count back in 77 and it definitely left an indelibe mark on me. Han shot first, Boba Fett died, etc. But I am also a fan of Star Wars in general, if not everything that has come out. Whether or not the game includes full on rules for Jedi means little to me as I just want to play in the Star Wars universe more than anything. I was a huge fan of Boba Fett, even though he died, but only when he was unique. Now that he has been Wolverine-ized, he's not so cool anymore to me (same thing happened to Wolverine for me). This game looks awesome and it is playing really well and I like what they have focused on so far. And I look forward to what is coming too.

Anyways, I just hope the game is successful so that FFG can keep putting out products so that most people will get to play their Star Wars one way or another.

Look… I understand what FFG hopes this game will be. I do… I was there to watch Star Wars "A New Hope" (as it later came to be called), in the theaters (during the original release). My point is… FFG made a choice to sell us an 'incomplete' universe to start. I know a lot of you are excited about "scoundrel… and outer rim" type games… In fact… So am I… But by selling the first book this way… I HAVE TO BUY ANOTHER… At least one (and wait years in the process). That has me VERY NOT excited!

Cannon… Matters to us "geeks"… That's it… a casual fan does not care about cannon… Of which still, If Lucas Arts stamped it it's official… For me to argue that is like a modern priest disagreeing with God over the content of the Bible… You don't like Force Unleashed?… I thought "Return of the Jedi" was a load of S***… I mean a planet full of violent teddy bears!!! That put Jar Jar to shame! Whiching that trailer for "Force Unleashed II" (a great trailer) gets me all Jedi excited! As does the soldier in the "Hope" trailer for TOR (Yes… the other game I was talking about, set in the middle the of Jedi hayday)… Yeah those inspire the Star Wars geek in me! What of it! Luke was panzy… Solo a nerf herder… C'mon… We all can like what we like here… It is how the "Star Wars Universe" got so big… It's big enough for everyone… and has something for everyone as well…

You can personally dislike any portion of the Star Wars universe (which ever weird side of the stupid cannon debate you wish to be on)… But this is a game for ALL fans… So I just think BOOK #1 should have given us more "Star Wars" and less of one groups vision of what Star Wars they want you to play. I would have rather seen a non-era specific book… So I or another GM can decide where to play (WotC sort of did this… They said they started in the Rebellion Era, yes with a playable Jedi… but kept things as era-neutral as possible…

It all just feels like the need to sell more books is pushing aside the end user… who deserves more flexability to experience the Star wars they wish right off the bat…

White Wolf Games and Dungeons & Dragons both brought gemers to RPG games without movies… cartoons… etc. And people came in numbers large enough to start a movement… WEG Star Wars… With the weight of the Star Wars universe behind it… did nothing… That says so much about the "success" of the game… I cannot possibly word it another way… You may have like it… but that did not make it good… or viable from a sales standpoint.

LucianZenlav said:

Actually, the WEG Star Wars RPGis a big part of all that is the Star Wars EU at this point. Much of what has come after in the novels had its roots in their RPG as many authors used the game as a sort of information bible. And they held the license for quite a while, 12 years if I am not mistaken. That was without heaps and heaps of information on Jedi and Sith et al. WEG lost the license because they had to declare bankruptcy. WotC had it for about 10 years and that included revamping the entire system just to drum up business and then dropped it. From what I gather they found it wasn't selling as well as expected. So I don't hink that just having information on Jedi or Sith or Mandalorians or whatever will make for a popular game. A game has to be fun and attract people to play, if it doesn't do that then nothing you put out will matter. So here's hoping the game is fun and allows people to immerse themselves in the Star Wars universe in an exciting way. If it is popular then we will see more books. More books means that many people may get to see their favorite part as well.

WotC gave up the lisence mostly because of disputes between Lucas Arts and WotC brass kept causing product hold ups, redesigns, etc… Which because it was not selling in stellar number (the distant second place factor) caused them to forgo the lisence. Not simply because of poor sales. Let me put things this way… Would you buy an "Aliens" game with no rules for the "Aliens"… How about "Predetor" or the "X-Men" without super heroes? Jedi are part of what makes the Star Wars universe unique (same with Mandalorian Armor… hence bringing it up)… To leave out what makes you unique is absolutely crazy from a marketing standpoint. I mean truly!

But… I am done here… I make posts for a more "open and inclusive" game…

Guess that is not what is desired… by the rest… but I have said my piece… If FFG does not rectify this… I WILL NOT GIVE THEM $$$ PERIOD!!! That will speak louder then a forum post… As none of my friends will either… and probably non of theirs… etc…

And I thought this thread smelled bad, on the outside.

I hope no one is hoping that things will change based on forum griping. We are already getting a book on the Jedi and the timetable for its release (along with the Rebels vs Empire book) is the centerpiece of their entire design plan.

Doc, the Weasel said:

Since only a select few are really doing all the bitching about lack of an official Jedi presence in EotE, I doubt if any sort of change is going to happen, whether it's expected or not.  If FFG's production cycle from initial development ot getting the book on shelves is anything like the one WotC had for their Star Wars books, the EotE corebook has been finalized for quite some time, with only a few alterations made by way of the Beta, mostly consisting of typos and a few mechanical alterations (specializtion costs, a handful of talents, Autofire, and Force Power upgrades to name a few).

And unlike Wookiees, we don't have the ability to rip FFG's arms out of their sockets (not that I'd want to do that or even condone such a thing in the first place).

The best that can be hoped for in terms of official material regarding Jedi and other Force-using traditions is either in supplements for EotE or Force & Destiny in 2015.

As much as I enjoy playing Force-users/Jedi (my first character in every Star Wars RPG has been a Jedi of some stripe, even if a barely trained one), I can appreciate FFG wanting to steer away from that and have their first book focus on the non-Jedi crowd, and in effect get an additional year or so of development and system-testing before introducing a character type that has traditionally bent/broken all the prior Star Wars RPGs in some degree or another.

Like I said earlier, I am looking forward to reading this book and am in no way saying that this is an awful book before I read it. In truth, I think the rules look fun and I can’t wait to get a hold of however…

I am not sure that saying those who are not pleased with the Jedi marginalization is “bitching”. As I said in my earlier post, I am excited about the game and I also think that FFG is making a huge mistake by focusing on the outer rim scoundrels. In truth, I think a lot of the defending of FFG decision making is more in line of being an ideologue of the game. To be honest I have seen far more people on this board say things that would suggest a disappointment with the non Jedi narrative than a complete compliance with it.

In some ways, I see what FFG is doing as Father Knows Best syndrome. I call it this because of the in-house think tank that some game companies do without “really” thinking about its audience. I would use D&D 4ed as an example but that would be way to easy, instead I will use AEG’s Legend of the Five Rings 4ed. During the design diary of their new edition they said that they would be removing a lot of the history, changing the schools to make them streamlined and a host of other ideas that they were clearly called out on during that period. Their response was “Trust us, we know our game and you will not be disappointed”.

In truth, many of the things they were called out on during the start of their new edition were absolutely true especially as time went on. The reviews have been less than stellar and groups are starting to move back to the previous edition. The major call by a lot of fans has been please give us 5^th edition and please make it more like 3^rd edition. The point is that game companies many times see fans as ideologues who will do as there are told. I kind of see that same thinking with FFG.

In fact, I would bet that many of the reviews on Amazon will say things that suggest the game rules are great but it is missing that high fantasy/action Jedi moments that we have all come to love. I also think that unless FFG makes Jedi supplements quickly for EotE, it will sting them. As a fan of RPGs and Star Wars, 2015 is a ridiculous time to wait for Lightsaber fights.  

Asshattery and swtor-forum behaviour… wow, I mean, I know I shouldn't be suprised, but I still am. I don't think the "money-card" has the same effect on FFG. Its not really an argument, nor does it really function as a good threat, nor is it … I mean, c'mon… why silly threats and asshattery?

I see this discussion again, I wonder if I should sink to this level of stupid and discuss with morons, instead I post a sort of monologue where I talk to myself about how some people never will be happy until they get to that elusive nothing that they want, where their own definition is the only valid, and any counter argument - however reasonable and valid (EU happened very much because of WEG, its history, its a fact - WotC created little new stuff, mostly rehashed WEG stuff, with a few notable exceptions sure) - is ignored, or even sometimes cited out of context to start a flame war (are we getting there?), or something akin to this behaviour. I used to think this belonged to pre-adolescent, prepubertal sillies, but I have been proven wrong again and again. I can accept that, but hardly respect it. Hence I sink and saunter slowly downwards too…

@Thenaysayers:
Its not really a big issue that stuff is "missing" as you claim - when you think of it, not really… make it yourself, use your creativity and imagination and think up something else than bland and boring threats about not spending your cash. We get it, you're hurt and "in the right" - we're all in the "wrong" for being stupid ass doormats that lets FFG run their company as they know works for them… yeah, sure, they know nothing of marketing, at all…. you tell them! What is the trouble of investing time to make the game memorable, I mean if they made some stats you disagreed with, you'd tweak them anyways, you'd have to make your own villains, one always makes up new stuff … I just don't see the problem… Isn't RPGs about creativity?

Jegergryte said:

+1

Truncated the text to keep the focus.

Dance Commander said:

Of course we've seen this. People upset will always be very vocal. Although I've seen just as many people say they weren't disappointed. Also, we are but a drop in the bucket. Who's to say whether or not they are a majority, minority or whatever? Only time and sales will show. WotC threw in everything and it didn't work for them. So maybe we need a new perspective.

I've seen the statement that Jedi make the Star Wars universe unique, but I think it is the universe itself and all it encompasses that makes it interesting. This includes the Jedi, x-wings, the Millenium Falcon, wookies, R2-D2, lightsabers, Death Stars, star destroyers, stormtroopers, the Rebellion, and so much more. The characters, the stories, so much of this is the character of the Star Wars universe. This game seems to promote fun in playing in the Star Wars universe and I think that will be the biggest telling point.

Oh man, stop the fighting. IF its not in the BETA or Beginners book, Just make it up. Why not sit down and design a Jedi and make it for YOUR game. Who cares about what Tom, Dick and Harry thinks. Just make it work in YOUR game, and if you are having fun with it, then its a game to keep playing. So please, cut the ball busting. Im not impressed with the "firefly approach" to it, but its still a cool game and once the Jedi book comes out, I will enjoy it more. Until then, house rule, house rule and house rule!

What really makes a Star Wars game is the story you and your group tell around the table. Nothing else matters.