Solan said:

If you play pie-slice galaxy, yes. If you play Shattered Ascension maps, then no; removing DS tokens removes a protracted unbalancing expansion element in favour of a much more interactive, fast-paced, tactical and dynamic gameplay in which tactical choices dictate the early game rather than random DS blips. But then again, I wouldn't play pie-slice galaxy ever again after trying SA maps; it's simply much, much more slow-paced and boring. Which, I guess, makes DS tokens suitable, at least in regards to the slow part.

Solan said:

If playing with Gravity Drive as RAW then I would of course naturally pick it as well. As I probably would with any race, considering how ridiculously OP it is. We never use Political Cards as Trade Goods because we use the Twilight Council political option from the SA ruleset, which makes Politics a much more viable avenue to pursue and far more exciting and engrossing than the standard RAW politics, which is a cointoss between random impotent toothless laws and laws that actually just might matter.

Again, I can only urge you to try and view the Shattered Ascension ruleset. It's quite comprehensive, and we don't use even half the options, but the better designed political phase and the premade maps are more or less universally regarded as definite improvements over the original game. It really does change it in such a way that makes you never want to go back. It is simply more interactive, engrossing, tactical and far, far, far more intensive.

Loverth, I'm afraid I accidentally embedded many of my replies in your quoted text in my last message.  I would be much obliged if you would take a lot at what I wrote there.  Thanks!

Mighty Maltim said:

Admirals affect flagships now? Or is this a specific Hil Colish thing?

Solan said:

Heh, no worries, I'll try and sort out your hidden pearls then :)

Solan said:

Okay, this will be rather general, as I'm tired and sorting out the quotation thingymajiggle would take a while. Anyhow...

Regarding pseudo-choices, I apply this concept whenever there's a 'flavour-concept' (flagships) that function too much as a patchwork solution to a race, making the 'optional choice' into a mandatory choice. I consider the Hil Colish such a 'pseudo-choice' simply because the Creuss are that much more scary with it. I consider this vastly different from racial theme; Muuat's theme is centered around their War Suns, Naalu's theme is (in my opinion) first and foremost their ability to act first (telepathy) and fighters secondary (since many games it's simply not possible/viable to aim for advanced fighters, especially since fighters are easily countered by Destroyer fleets). Hacan's theme is trade etc etc.... Each race has some central aspects relating to this theme, but when done elegantly, they're not crucial to it's success; Hacan can get by without their otherwise powerful racial techs, Naalu can easily focus on other technologies than the ones pertaining to fighters once they get Cybernetics, seeing how their Fighters will almost always be superior anyway with just this tech etc. etc... Basically they have aspects accentuating their theme, but aren't bordering on being crucential to their viability.

This is where I feel both the Ghosts and the Arborec fall short; Their Flagships and racial tech(s) are simply essential, and the race performs outright sub-optimally without them. This, arguably, is especially true for the Arborec, whose one racial tech is, in my opinion, too essential.

Of course opinions differ on whether or not Hil Colish is essential. I believe one person argued that Hil Colish is not essential to a Creuss player. And I agree that of course a win is possible without it; however, to me, not having the Hil Colish detracts alot of both the power and the finesse of the entire race. You can do stuff without it, sure, but a good player would sit more or less every turn and lament the lack of it because it offers such a wide range of tactical possibilities, making it a pseudochoice in my opinion. Anyway, it's arguably semantics. I just believe there's a fine line between theme and pseudo-choices necessary to make a race actually work. The Arborec arguably suffers the most from this.

And regarding Star by Star setting.... please, do yourself a favour and try it. Try it using the bidding system for starting locations, the political phase and the map - I'd strongly recommend the map Ultimatum for either 5 or 6 players. It is a vast improvement both fun-wise and competitively compared to standard pie-slice galaxy as per the rules. Really, it defies description. I'll have to go out on a limp and kindly ask you to trust me on that one :)

Solan said:

Usually when playing Creuss, no matter how large a fleet I have, I'm usually the one getting attacked, not doing the attacking, not sure why. When I DO have to initiate the attack myself, I make sure I have some kind of countermeasure against retaliatory strikes. Signal Jamming on the most dangerous fleet in the area will keep them from moving in. This is the best method of covering your back. Diplomacy II can protect your fleet next round if you succeeded in invasion combat in that system, and Warfare can allow you to move again and restock. However these methods take time, especially Warfare, so you need to be careful when you start throwing your weight around. As a rule of thumb, I don't attack a fleet that's over half the size of my own fleet if there's another fleet at least that big nearby (unless I have signal jamming.)

As for your earlier discussion of which strategy cards Creuss should take early game, I would definitely recommend Trade and Production. Trade on turn 1 if you can manage, and Production on turn 2. As stated, Hil Colish is a very important tool to the Creuss and you should ALWAYS try to have it built by turn 2 if possible. Save your trade goods from turn 1 and with your expansion and the 2 bonus resources from Production's primary, you should always be able to build it turn 2 if you get your hands on these 2 cards. After that, Production is always good, as you can build in your HS and move units out to join the fleet right away. Warfare (I or II) is also usually a good choice as Hil Colish's low speed will mean you'll be traveling at a crawl unless you get some kind of boost in there.

And yes, I love the Saar, lol. Saar were definitely my favorite race prior to Shards of the Throne. However, I think Creuss is probably my new favorite. I've been playtesting Creuss rather extensively since they came out, which means I haven't gotten around to trying Saar yet with Shards. While they were definitely my favorite, I have no misconceptions about their frailty. Gotta keep those spacedocks safe. Expand and move. Everyone focuses on their moving spacedocks, but their racial ability of getting a trade good for every planet they take control of is very powerful. For fleets,  I know a popular strategy with Saar is the triple spacedock mass-fighter fleet scenario, but I've never used that myself. Way too dangerous putting all spacedocks in the same system like that. I always keep one on the back lines, and send the other two out to expand in different directions. I don't attack with fleets containing my spacedocks if I can help it. I usually try to screen for them, having a front line fleet and then a smaller fleet in the rear to guard the spacedock. This means lots of little fleets everywhere, but when someone's trying to get at a spacedock, this gives it time to get away while they deal with the screening fleet.

I think I'm done with my Creuss stint for now, so next time we play I'll probably want to see Saar's new stuff for myself. I'm very excited about Chaos Mapping. It'll give them a much needed defensive boost. I'm kind of disappointed in their flagship though. For Saar, I was expecting something more like the Arborec's Duha Menaimon. But Son of Ragh just seems like filler.

Treguard said:

Admirals can affect any ship. They can even be placed on fighters if you so wish. (No idea why would you would do that, but the option is there.)

Crap, I was confusing that with the dreadnought extra movement- my bad!

Yssaril Tribes and Mentak seem to be the most powerful.

For third place it's hard to pick, but I am beginning to thing the Nekko Virus might just be up there.

As a note, we tend to play with all expansions and all possible optional rules.

KelRiever said:

Nekro Virus up there? Sure, they're scary from a combat point of view, but their lackluster homesystem, mediocre trades, lack of voting participation and dependence on aggression to acquire technologies are potentially huge drawbacks. Plus it's easy to inhibit them from claiming certain objectives.

I would probably categorize the Nekro-Virus amongst the very low tier; they're simply too inconsistent performers, too random and too vulnerable to alot of factors such as politics. The Alastor - used defensively, mind you - is probably their greatest strength in my opinion, but they're simply too easy to hamstring when good players face off against them.

 Reposted because this was in the wrong thread:

Well, we shall see. You obviously feel strongly about them not being powerful, but I'm not going to get into a 'theory' war on the internet about it. I'll say I'm open to considering they are not so great due to number of games I've seen them in. But they've been excellent from what I have seen. I'll admit that it takes someone who knows what they are doing to play them. It isn't a good faction for a person learning the game.
 

KelRiever said:

Mentak?  Really?  Sure, they're fun, but they're only middle-of-the-pack.

Let's look at their special abilities:

- Start with 1 extra CC.  Nice, but nothing to write home about.

- Steal TG.  Not super-useful.  This does help to keep a cap on Hacan's stockpiling of TG, but typically players will unload TG down to 2 just to avoid losing one.  So the topography of the unit structure might change -- maybe it's a little harder to get a War Sun out -- but this isn't an obvious benefit for Mentak only.

- Pre-combat shots.  Great early and in small battles; not very useful in the mid-to-late game or in large battles, when 1 extra hit (on average) doesn't do much.

Certainly you can do well with Mentak ... but you could say that about any race.  Mentak has to be played a particular way for them to be super-effective, as enhanced by Salvage Operations.  But their power starts relatively high and degrades throughout the game.  Hence, middle-of-the-pack.

That having been said, though, Mirror Computing is amazing, and might be enough all on its own to bring Mentak into the top tier, much as Winnu's Bioptic Recyclers could do before it was FAQ'ed out of usefulness.

- Pre-combat shots. Great early and in small battles; not very useful in the mid-to-late game or in large battles, when 1 extra hit (on average) doesn't do much.

Actually, that is one of hte best abilites they have.  The trade goods ability is meh, the extra CC is good, like you said, but not a game winner.  However, that cruiser ability alone is the winner.  Cruiser tech up, and in an objective based game, like TI, I think you have everything you need with high speed cruisers, with stasis fields (and all the other good cruiser tech).  Keep in mind we play with all optional rules, so that includes their race tech, mines, and the heroes.  They're awesome. 

KelRiever said:

Sure their TG racial ability is very situational, but the sole reason Mentak is considered powerful currently is the incredible synergy between Mirror Computing and Salvage Operations; aside from making almost every fight into very cost-efficient affairs military-wise, it also allows them to qualify for the otherwise harsh influence/resource stage II objectives that would otherwise be a hindrance to them lategame.

I'm not entirely certain Mentakk is actually top-tier,  but if not, they are certainly amongst the very top of the middle-tier. And that is solely due to the synergy between Mirror Computing and Salvage Operations. Plus their flagship, Fourth Moon, is potentially quite strong, at least from my experience; it's the cheapest Flagship of all if memory serves, and it provides a neat bonus against Mk II Carriers, Inheritance Systems-boosted Dreads and War Sun fleets. Not much, but combined with certain action cards or a healthy dose of Destroyers + 2 Cruisers, it should certainly make any of the aforementioned fleets think twice before committing to an attack. But the primary reason Mentakk seems to be on the rise is definitely the synergy between their two racial techs.

Just to be sure every one understands...I think Yssaril is the top race.

Bill