Regarding Carapace quality, it's simple, IMO: The item called Stormtrooper Carapace is the armour that's usually handed out to Stormtroopers. The Common quality is the one that is commonly available to them. It says nothing about the absolute quality of the item, only about its quality compared to the majority of the same kind of item. As JuankiMan said: A Poor Quality Astartes PA is still higher in tech-level and artisanship than Best Quality Guardsman Flak by far.

Ok, so the ST is the peak human specimen right?  So give him 8 aptitudes; he's the best of the ebst, all natural, instead of bieng wired with cog mahcines (à la tech-Priest)

Weapon skill

Ballistic skill

Agility

Finesse

Toughness

Offense

Willpower

Knowledge.

That ough to please every one AND make the Storm Trooper an actual top human rather than just another grunt with primo gear.

And I guess the standard kit MUST have the guard flak armour.  I mean why start with a flak vest; even operator are guardsmen! Therefore, everyone MUST have Guard Flak Armour.  like Grenades can only be used by grenadiers.  it's not "Guardsmen standar issue explosive thrownable device" after all!

Braddoc said:

First, I think Tech-Priests shouldn't have so many Aptitudes to begin with, so I disagree with giving anyone else so many since I think it puts them at an unfair advantage over the rest of the group. Second, removing Fieldcraft makes StormTroopers less self-sufficient and capable on the field, which is more of a commando thing than bludgeoning people silly with a mace. Third, I agree that Storm Troopers should have Willpower added IF everyone had their number of Aptitudes raised/lowered to 7, but Knowledge? Why the hell would they need or justify having knowledge? In the Schola they were taught tactics, combat, the arts of war not science or philosophy. And third, Guard Flak is the typical armour of the Guard, and thus all guardsmen deployed on the frontlines are supplied with it, but inside a tank or within a recon unit it would be a liability, so those units don't wear it. And you got it the other way around: the name Grenadier means they're expected to use grenades, not that grenades are exclusive of them. The last time the latter was true was during the Napoleonic Wars, when grenades weren't widespread and weighed a ton so you needed specially trained soldiers to use them. Similarly Storm Trooper Carapace is expected of Storm Troopers, but nothing stops a Guardsman of requisitioning and wearing one (bar the thice-cursed Munitorum, that is).

Oops, forgot to add fieldcraft to the list, my bad!

knowledge yes; they are top trianed soldiers; don'T tell me they only learn very basic tactics (they *do* start with tactica imperialis) and nothing else? Like to use your own initiative, out think and out smart an opponent is not for them to do?  Depsite being dropped beind the lines and are basically alone and on their own? Or is it reserved for Sentinel pilots only?

And that whole "Grenadiers can only uses grenades" bit was to point out the flawed logic of an item having a certain name is bound to be part of a certain's specialty because of a name tagged to it.  As for guark flak in a tank, who knows the space there is really inside in a game where mesures are not given?

Ok, we get it. You are a hard-core Storm Trooper fan boy.  You have Storm Trooper wallpaper, lunchboxes and a mobile hanging over your bed.

And it's kind of refreshing to see something besides Space Marine fanboyism, honestly.

But really, how many pages/threads of fan-wankery do you need? Storm Troopers are not going to be sneakier than a Ratling, buffer than an Ogryn and more learned than an Enginseer. Get over it.

Man, someone didn't like my sarcastic remark a couple of pages back hm?  And it ain't fanboy ishm or wahtever its called: just  that the elite of the elite, the best of the best, the top non-genetically modified human soldier are simply well equipped guardsmen rather than one man assault squads as described.

THAT'S my problem.

Odd that no one points out the number of threads taken over by the lasgun setting people; now we got a lasbolter, and no one seems to care?

Really? With armies armed with those, I question the utility of Space Marines. That or Guard command is more imcompetent than first envisionned and no one seems willing to replace them with better tactical minds, possibly to continue the status quo with the Marines.  Auto fire would have suffice to make the lasgun intresting whtout making it a do all, be all weapon super weapon.

Braddoc said:

Lol. Just lol. Try and tackle a Space Marine with that all-powerful "lasbolter" and tell me how it goes. Then maybe you will see the usefulness of the Astartes.

Also, the Storm Trooper you seem to have in mind is the one presented in Dark Heresy, but that was a 13.000XP character. It would kind of screw up party balance to put that kinda guy together with freshly minted guardsmen. so instead you get a fresh schola graduate. Well trained and superbly outfitted but lacking the years of battlefield experience that make regular Storm Troopers as deadly.

Braddoc said:

I'm not quite sure what's the point of continuing to discuss this:

• Storm Troopers, old and new > Average Guardsman
• Squad of Storm Troopers > Squad of Guardsmen
• Storm Troopers, old and new ~= Average Player Character
• Lasgun < Bolter
• Overchaged Lasgun < Bolter
• Space Marines > Storm Trooper

It's the fact that you have dozens of 10 men squads armed with that lasbolter who will surely fire at the same time; a Barrage of 1d210+5 Pen2 shot will ruin anyone's day.  The Astartes will simply hold on longer (even they cannot shoot a whole company of guardsmen with a single magazine or without taking damage.)

In case of the players, it can be anything from a guy or two to X amount of people shooting this at the same time. 

Or was that to please the "We want a human sniper" crowd?  A single shot at 1d10+5 pen2 makes for a decent sniper's weapon after all without being accurate.

JuankiMan said:

Right, and explain to me again putting marines with normal humans in BC was unbalanced and horrible?  Those marines were FAR from being new battle brothers, and while I do not stalk the BC forums, 'pretty sure there's no "OMG!!!! MARINES ARE OVERPOWER IT MAKES FOR AN UNBLALANCED GAME." comments all over the place.

He's an elite  trooper: of course he's stronger and more powerful than your average guardsman.  If not only by gear and equipment, but by training and mentality. 

Perhaps the chaos champion ought to have Flak armour rather that power armour, y'know to balance things out with the Renegade..

JuankiMan said:

Oh sure- tackle a marine with that lasbolter- Only if a marine takes down a Mars Battlecruiser, y'know the thing they might never get to fight in their whole career.  Not to mention (again) that there is a chapter of 100 marines facing a Regiment of THOUSANDS (if not Tens of Thousands) of guardsmen all armed with that lasbotler.  Even with their destruction, 100 bolters cannot match the sheer firing rate of thousands of lasguns.

Braddoc said:

While no guardsman is a match for a marine, on a per cost basis the IG is far more efficient that the Space Marines. The trouble is that there are things marines can do which the IG simply cannot.

Face Orcs in melee for more than 10 seconds.

Clear genestealers from a space hulk.

Deal with tyrannids or chaos or dark eldar or anything with significant fear powers. Guardsmen are mere mortals in a hostile universe that largely thinks of them as appetizers and they know it. They have low morale and can break. And they do; this is not a factor in the RPG (beyond fear and pinning rules) because taking control of someones character away in an RPG sucks. In the larger universe? Why do you think IG units have priests and commisars?

Space Marines are like modern strike aircraft. A great way to deal with high value threats but essentially useless for actually controlling territory. An entire 1,000 strong space marine chapter would be essentially useless for, say, holding a territory like Afghanistan which requires boots on the ground across a vast and complex landscape.

So what? Marines and IG do different jobs. Having lasguns suck slightly less changes none of that.

Andor said:

They can actually, that's why there's a Regiment of Gaurdsmen rather than a tactical Squad.

Clear genestealers from a space hulk.Andor said:

Again send in more men if you absolutely need something in the Hulk; Or send Acolytes they're gun-ho and somewhat expendable.

Andor said:

You seems to think Guardsmen are just feudal worlders hicks who were clubbed behind the head and woke up on a transport ship, bound for a war world and their training is limited to "Obey orders, Point the lasgun at a target, pull trigger, repeat."  I'm not saying there's no Regiment made of those, (conscript) but I would sya a majority of the Guardsmen are already trained and elite PDF soldiers taken for the tithe.  So they are not all weak willed cowards, some are actually experienced troops with PDF-related combat experience (pirates, xeno raids, invasion, local uprising).  Not to mention there's a few Regimetns facing Tyranids right now.  The Cadians fight Chaos all the damn time too.  Or are those the exception to the mass of dumb guardsmen that somehow can hold the line for 10K years by almost pure luck?

Braddoc said:

A regiment of Guardsmen attracts a Warband of orks, and if they get to melee they get brutalized.

There were rules printed in the White Dwarf for playing Space Hulk with guardsmen instead of Space Marine Terminators. Remember Aliens 2? Make it 10 times worse and add in the fun factor than any surviving trooper you loose track of for a few seconds could become an almost undetectable double agent.

99.999% or the Imperial Guard in the galaxy are conscripts. There are very few worlds with a professional army because there would be no way in hell you could fill the quota of soldiers needed to not be overrun otherwise. Training levels can vary, but very, VERY few soldiers joined the Guard on their own free will. And if a horde of Daemons closes in on your position, their unholy presence clawing at you mind, or a Hive Tyrant decides to double-check how you look on the inside or you see metallic skeletons inexorably approaching who just refuse to die, it is not a matter of weak will. Most people will crap their pants. As Andor said, that's why the Imperial Guard has priests and why the Comissariat is so brutal. For the Guard, both in the flufff and in the TT, morale is their weakest link.

Now, "lasbolter" vs. marine: at 1d10+5 Pen2, a M36 Lasgun would need a roll of 10 to inflict a single wound on an average Space Marine (TB8, AP 8), and that's assuming he hits on the head or extremities since the breastplate is completely impervious. On the other hand, and Astartes Boltgun does 1d10+9 Pen5 with Tearing, which will instantly vaporize the standard Guardsman 91% of the time. Forgive me if I'm not impressed.

Who said I was impressed by the lasbolter?  I find it a farce.

Never gotten White Dwarf, as most here, so that doens't work.

Few worlds with a professional army? You DO know that each and every world  (or well, planetary gouverneur) is required to maintian a Planetary Defence Force (PDF) as per their contract with the Imperium? I see hardly how a hive world with billions rely thier defence to weak willied conscript with barely enough training to fight against invaders, or even calm riots with gangers (who are already fighitng and killing a plenty)

EDIT: 'Guess nothing changed then, what a waste in the end. Even got lasbolter to every wepaon we got.

Braddoc said:

You were the one who called it a "do all, be all superweapon" that makes you question the utility of Space Marines.

I don't care wether you read the article or not. You missed the point completely that sending regular humans to tackle genestealers is like sending colonial marines to tackle xenomorphs. They've tried that for three movies in a row and always ends up being a total disaster, and xenomorphs don't have the ability to instantly brainwash people with a single kiss or brush off assault rifle fire.

And yes, almost all planets keep a standing PDF and/or partly pay their tithe in armed men, but almost none of them ask said armed men what's their opinion on the matter. That's the definition of a conscript, some average Joe between a certain age who gets pulled out of his home and forced to join the army. As I said, training varies from planet to planet. Some, like Cadia train their soldiers extensively while others give them their guns and uniform, a couple of weeks of training and call it a day, but the common ground of most of them is that they didn't choose to be there, and save for the truly motivated ones, most would rather be somewhere else if given the choice.

And please don't compare gang riots to a Tyranid invasion. It is unfair on the poor Tyranids.

Yeah it's a do it all weapon, that's why I laugh at it. giving such weapons in the hands of expendible guardsmen is a waste of ressources.

Yeah I forgot how in Aliens bit was failed due to a weak, inexperienced commander and crappy intel first, rather than cowardly soldiers.  And guardsmen are never gonna be send agaisnt Tyranids?  Must be why they talk about it in the Uplifting primer- must be why it's all false information as well "No need to give them real xeno knowledge- Those are for Astartes after all!"

Yeah, rather be tolling away in some factorium instead of standing guard at the Spire with 3 squares/day.