Re: Bolters. The bolter is described, as far back as the basic Rogue Trader, as have an 'admantium penetrator tip.' This is a useless design without a muzzle velocity to power it through armor. Ergo, the bolter shell is a high-velocity thing, whichs means a nasty accelerator right out of the muzzle. QED, it's anything but recoilless.

Besides, in the old days, Orks useta use 'em. Wassa use uv havin' a gun what don't kick 'n go BOOM! den?

Face Eater said:

I said that because the Guard rarely gets COOL stuff; no three-barrel flamers, or nooverheat plasma pistols. They get lots of stuff, but much of it is the bottom end, plain jane stuff. It's reliable, and easy to mass produce, but nothing to right home about. They don't get the cool stuff, like relic weapons, xenos toys, or what have you. I don't expect players in Only War to run out of the stuff the DMun gives them, but it will rarely be awesome, unless you are a special weapons/heavy weapons expert, or the aforementioned Officer with a plasma pistol and a power sword (putting him a lot closer to the opposition than one might like), and a refractor field. Comparing their military to ours can also fail; we don't shoot our deserters, and worship our President. While I grant that a typical IG Commissar is not likely as severe as Yarrick might seem, and could easily be a friend, a confidante, and a moral elevator, prior to a battle, the fact still remains that, while the US Military, or the British Armed Forces, likely treat their soldiers as people, caring what we want, need, and think, the Imperium treats their Guardsmen as one more variety of ammunition, to be thrown at the enemy till the end. Those soldiers don't get better gear, often, because their superiors likely don't view them as needing it; the gear they have will carry them through to their eventual death. Granted, much of this could just be my opinion, but it seems to be what I read. If the game makes allowances for soldiers to get nifty kit, in difference to how they are illustrated in the table top, and maybe even scrounge looted gear, without being shot for touching heathen xenos gear, or tainted Chaos tech, all power to them. As is, I don't see them getting better than "standard" plasma/melta weapons, and the occasional Officer's Power sword/Power Fist, and that's what i was saying; if other games might have you start with plasma pistols, power swords, masterworked carapace armor, or what have you, it would seem weird to play a game where that will be forever out of your reach. Dark Heresy is rather similar, I grant you, though you'd think an Inquisitor could foot a bit more, but the others start with good stuff, better than the rank-and-file Guardsman might ever hope to get.

Warboss Krag said:

Don't you love how, much like the Space Marines, themselves, their vaunted weapons change size with the fiction, and the lack of convenience? Sometimes, a Space Marine is just a bit bigger than a man, other times, he's a 9' superman with hands that make an SMG seem like a pistol. I rather miss the older days, when the power armor and weapons of the Astartes might have been a pinch bigger, but were mostly just higher quality (compared to ehat i often wonder, as no one else uses bolters consistently), with better machine spirits. If a Space Marine really did give someone in the Guard a Bolt Pistol, it would be a Bolt Pistol, and the Guardsman's "gift" would be stocked from the same stores Commissar's bolt pistol ammo comes from.Oh well, and yes, i would agree that a bolter should have a good bit of recoil.

Don't get me wrong with what I am whining about; I am extatically awaiting this game; I just wonder how it will flow, when compared to more possibly character-driven/individual merits based games of the system? I hope to sometime soon see.

I think that the true measure (pun intended) of the Astarte's size wasn't really made into an issue until, surprise of surprises, Deathwatch did them right. I had hoped (and dreaded) that they would be supermen, and by gum, they were!

If you look at the original Marine lore, it becomes clear that they were supposed to be super-sized from the word go. Of course, it's not like Citadel (the minis company) ever had issues of scale, ever, and since…

As for cool Guard gear, fooey on not getting the good stuff! The farther you are from administrative command, the more, um, options you have for culling and using captured and oddball gear. Of course, I'm American, and the British classically hate that business ('a messy battlefield'). Fooey on them! What other country would produce nutballs that would overarm aircraft to the point where a simple field modification becomes sort of standard issue? (The B-25.)

I could easily see an experienced unit, far from administrative command, hauling all sorts of stuff - hey, I even still have lead models of Space Marines with shuriken catapults!

Something else to bring up…

Not getting 'the good stuff' doesn't mean it will be a bad game.  A different tone.  But not a bad game.  Thinking new toys (Or levels, or skills, or whatever) are the only things that make a game fun or good is… not the best attitude.  I imagine we'll see something similar to DW Requisition and such.  But seriously, equipment doesn't have to escalate into 40k "Magic Items" to be a fun game.  A lot of fun could be had by being a Lasgun toting regiment for a whole campaign if you ask me.  It just changes the focus a bit on what makes for 'advancement' and that's OK!

Dulahan said:

True, I wholly agree, and still expect a great game. My fear stems more from the fact that, while Space Marines start with good stuff, and can requisition better stuff, the Guard start with a gun that works because it never jams, can be recharged by pissing on the power cell, and is only efficient in HUGE quantities, and armor that is not particularly effective against most of the critters they'll be fighting. Add to that most Guardsmen won't requisition better stuff; they have what their superiors believe they need, and if they die, there's always more Guardsmen, and 100 year wars are not rare. I don't want to seem like I just want nice toys, and awesome Skills, but I fear that they will remain mediocre, as that's what Guardsmen are. I hope, and again expect that they'll put my fears to rest, but with so little for info given, not knowing how they will do this is making me edgy.

Also, I'm not so sure how they'll set up "objectives" in Only War. Again, the IG forces rarely get newer, or better stuff, they die in droves, and a war that drags on for decades, or even a century, and only being one of numerous such campaigns around the galaxy, is a common occurence. That being said, I really want to know how they plan to set this game up, and make the characters feel relevant and rewarded over the course of a campaign. If only they'd just give us some more material to peruse.

Can't argue with that.  The 40k previews the past year have just… sucked.  We used to get almost weekly ones.  Deathwatch and Black Crusade had a bunch of previews by this stage.  Yet only war?  Just the blurb.  It's starting to feel like we might not get anything before the Free RPGday adventure.  And lots of us won't even be able to get that (My store doesn't have a big enough RPG scene to be willing to pay for the package) for the week or two it takes before it shows up on PDF (*IF* it does!).

But yeah, something like a setting preview, or overview of the way they intend to handle themes, or anything really, would be wonderful.  Even just saying the last 4 specialties!  ;)

Now it's like they announce stuff, maybe drop one preview, then nothing until suddenly it is in stores.  Not that previews are mandatory, it's just nice, and sad to see the 'candy' gone after so long of getting so much awesome 'candy'.  Heck, Honour the Chapter, for instance, one preview so far, and the third quarter is rapidly coming to an end.  Yet even that one preview was a safe one, we knew something like that would be there.  Ditto Tome of Fate has had one more, maybe, but still isn't in stores.

Yeah, it's just very noticeable how we used to get 3-4 really good previews for any major book, and now we're lucky to get 2 very vague ones.  Let alone how we got a plethora for the Corebooks, and so far next to nothing for this one.

venkelos said:

This kind of viewpoint tends to homogenise the Imperial Guard, and while that works when regarding them through the context of a unified army book, it barely matches the background beyond that context. There are countless different regiments, serving countless different roles, in countless different warzones in countless different wars across the history of the Imperium. Certainly, there are those regiments that are fed into the meatgrinder in generations-long wars of attrition, but there are also those whose objectives and conflicts are brief and laden with urgency. Some regiments are trained and/or equipped better or worse or simply differently to others.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

This is a good point.  Even in the Ghosts and Cain books there are plenty of named regiments that aren't just standard IG style ones.  Mention of Tithed groups from extra wealthy worlds or near forgeworld style worlds that have MUCH better equipment than a standard guard unit, and are in turn let keep them instead of using the Flashlight.   Fortunately, those units from worlds whose PDFs still use Muskets or sword and board still get uptrained and armed with the standard guard kit (though the latter may still be used by a wise commander for duties where Melee might be more likely, especially if they keep their swords…)

Granted, this can lead to weird mixtures of units.  And just because they're equipped in such a way as to make the average Storm Trooper regiment seem poorly equipped doesn't mean they won't be assigned to scouting or trench holding duties.  (Just like the Light Infantry Ghosts get assigned to Take and Hold or Trench duties at times)

Wasn't there even one regiment that had genuine power armor mentioned in one of the books?  Or was that just a bodyguard element of said regiment?

 I believe a maxed out veterans squad from the codex is something like a Sergeant and Nine troopers. All wear carapace armour.  The Sergeant has er, can he buy a plasma pistol and a power fist? There's one dude with a heavy flamer and two guys with plasma guns. Another two troopers man a lascannon and the other four are armed with lasguns or shotguns.

Or if the Sergeant has progressed enough to be a Special Character, he might be a gunnery Sergeant ramboing a Heavy Bolter, or carry a hot-shot laspistol and a power sword.

Or Sly Marbo (just a trooper, but a particuarly 'ard one) carries a Ripper Pistol ("It fires a hail of poisoned metal shards at the target but in a highly accurate way. The initial wounds caused by the shards allow the venom to enter the victim's bloodstream and cause death.") and a poisoned knife. 

Captain Al'rahem (a Platoon commander) carries the Claw of the Desert Tigers, a master crafted power sword encrusted with emblems of the desert which inflicts instant death regardless of the victim's toughness. Which is nice.

Mogul Kamir (leads a squad) rides a cyber-steed with a fearsome charge.

That's… enough cool stuff to be going on with right?

AluminiumWolf said:

Certainly, there are Guardsmen who get cool stuff, but they are one in a million, quite literally. Many of those are high-ranking leader units, or even leaders of their own worlds pdf and Guards, such as the aforementioned Al'Rahem, who is among the highest of his people, or Mogul Kamir, who is the greatest cavalry warrior, and has a mech-steed to keep up with him. A group of guys are a bit less likely to, and then you have one or two who don't feel like they are on the same page, whether ahead or behind. The best of the best of the Guard, by many accounts, the Cadian Shock Troops, stick to regular lasguns, regular bayonets, regular flak armor, and so on, and they are among the best sourced out regiments, so important is their task.

While I can't argue the Storm Troopers (it's going to take some getting used to, when I think of Storm Troopers as a Rank 9 Ascended occupation, and they are now going to rewrite them as starting jobs) can field some cool options, getting Veteran status, or being a Storm Trooper, and I don't think you move into that, but start there, will be easy. I also don't know if they'll make Tech-Priests courteous and approachable enough to get them to "modify" weapons, so that they seem cooler than bottom-rung lasguns.

If it follows anything like Dark Heresy, no characters will be able to get the really good guns (Plasma anything, Lascannons, etc.) for a decent stretch; I sort of hope it is more like Deathwatch, since I don't know BC well enough to want that to be the base. While the Ripper Pistol is one of my favorite guns, and one I was thrilled to see in Hostile Acquisitions, I HIGHLY doubt any Guardsman character, other than Marbo, himself, will ever be able to get one.

My biggest problem is, of course, a love of the shiny. I want my characters to have the best available stuff, like plasma pistols, refractor fields, power swords, lascannons, etc. and I know that Space Marines, Inquisitors, and Lord Captains can often acquire any of these easily, through their various means, but my own limited scope on the Guardsmen shows a group that doesn't often get cool toys. Vets, Officers, and Sts can have carapace, but no one else. Many of the big guns, like the lascannon, require two people to operate, and aren't so portable. Only the most important guys, like Primaris Psykers, Lord Commissars, and the highest ranking Officers get field generators, and only Commissars seem to have ready access to vaunted bolt weapons, other than the aforementioned heavy b, which requires a shooter and a feeder (again, two guys), and a setup apparatus. Through all of this, it just seems likely that many characters will spend much time wearing stuff that, in any other game FFG runs, is inferior to the starting gear of anyone else, which means my dream of being Colonel Heinrich Zimmerman, kitted out in carapace, fine clothes, a plasma pistol, power sword, refractor, and prosthetic vision apparatus is highly unlikely, both from a lack of survivability likelyhood, and from characters possibly not getting much kudos for  doing stuff, being Guardsmen.

Anyway, I will just keep hoping that the game DOES turn out to be really great, and that all of my whining turns out to just be tension from ignorance, both my own and that caused by FFG's silence. I already have a fair number of ideas on some stuff I could do, if I can get my friends to want to play it. My only real hurdle is the story, since forced religion makes them want to play atheist, and the Imperium doesn't stand for that. I have a number of NPCs I can stat out, a world to use, and everything. Let's hope that the book hits before we all die of boredom waiting on it.

 Um; Looking at the IG 4th edition codex (The most recent) a standard IG (not veteran or elite) Infantryman could potentially have any of the following gear:

Flamer

Grenade Launcher

Sniper rifle (Long-Las to us)

Meltagun

Plasma gun

Vox caster

Mortar 

Autocannon

Heavy Bolter

Missile Launcher

Lascannon.

Additionally the Sergeant can Potentially come with a Bolt pistol and Melta bombs!

Nothing there shiny enough for you?

Don't forget chainswords, power swords, power fists, targeters, apparently advanced medicae kits, thrown demolitions (make sure you have a Fate point or two standing by! One for re-roll, one for burning in case the first doesn't work…). All from command and other specialty squads. And then there are the vehicles. A lot of Dark Heresy characters would kill (and often have to) for this sort of kit.

Veteran friend of mine opined that your kit was 'whatever you could get your hands on and whatever you command would allow.'

venkelos said:

Where do people get this perception that the guard are mostly a mediocore conscript army? Even your average joe guardsman is selected from among the most elite warriors of his planet, and while he isn't as lavishly equipped as a space marine, his equipment is more than enough to complete his task. Eldar/CSM/necrons are not common adversaries in 40k, and are often far outnumbered by minor rebel/Xeno empires and pirates. The Guard will fight the latter three far more often than the others, and in comparison, the Guard have superior training, equipment, and willpower. And by no means is the Guardsman forgotten or unremembered- Being a Guardsman is frequently seen as a prestigious and honorable position in Imperial society, and members of a world's local military will frequently compete for selection.

Lot of the supplementary stuff like the Imperial Armour books will have pictures of the IG along with an equipment section detailing what they're carrying, a fair bit have non-standard issue like an extra knife in a boot, a powersword, stub pistol in a shoulder holster, cavalry boots and so on. In most cases as long as the item you've liberated off the last careless owner doesn't have '4Kaos!' and 8 pointed stars all over it or think you'll get away with carrying a gauss flayer, they don't seem to give too much of a damn.

Probably just means an extra form to fill out with the Dept Munitorium and your CO if you're expecting it to be fed with ammo, or BYO bullets. I can think of several adventures if the characters aren't too scrupulous by essentially running around sourcing the extra munitions, better quality food or crate of good quality guns for their section. Lot of times it could come down to swapping the supply bloke that nice shiny item you nicked off some dead guy for something better issue, doing a deal with the local civies or outright theft. During WWII my grandfather managed to liberate a Japanese officers sword, which wasn't exactly 'standard issue' and probably a couple of hundred years old, he sold it and the proceeds essentially paid for the marrige to my grandmother after the war.

I can even see something of a cool situation where a guardsman has liberated a Gauss Flayer/Shuriken Catapult/Splinter Cannon/UBER DEATH RAY and a few clips of ammo from the dead… or even a unit has liberated a group of those.  but is VERY careful about using them.  Always worried about if it is the right time.

"Sir, the Chaos Cultists are coming…  They outnumber us 3-1."   

"So be it, set lasguns to full auto."

"But sir, the alien weapons would slaughter…"

"DON'T QUESTION ME CORPORAL!"

"Yes Sir!"

OR

"Sir, we've routed the cultists, now… By the EMPEROR!  Traitor ASTARTES!"

"OH MY EMPEROR! SERGEANT! BREAK OUT THE FRAKING ALIEN WEAPONS!!!!  IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE!"

And lo and behold… choosing the right time leads to an improbable victory.