It makes sense that DH is not going to get the first priority for supplements, as it has got a lot. However, there are still some various obvious things missing from the line, and until recently the only upcoming supplement announced was "Only War". Now that has turned into a whole separate game 1) there is now a book missing in the DH line (the one for Guardsmen) and 2) there are now no announced projects for Dark Heresy. Now, it may be that there are still going to be books produced, but if so nothing has been said.

Let's talk about announced books for a moment, as I think we're clinging to those preview PDF's from over a year ago a little too tightly.

Look at Deathwatch. First Founding, The Jericho Reach, Tempest Rising and Honour the Chapter were never previewed in that document. They are four books that have arrived or are about to arrive since that PDF preview came out, and one of them - First Founding - was even out within the window that had everything else released. Over in RT land we've also got Soul Reaver, another title that was not on that preview, and the only one missing from the RT line up is The Koronus Bestiary which is the next book to come out. And, on top of that, in that time we've had Black Crusade, it's GM Kit, Hand of Corruption (which seemed to take forever to come out), and Tome of Fate (and the Fate preview mentioned it being the start of a series of books).

And then back in the land of DH, everything in that preview document is either out, or about to come out, the one change being that Only War changed from a supplement to a whole game during its development (don't ask me when - I was contracted to the book well after that decision was made).

Also you have to ask - were they releasing 'class' books? I mean, Blood of Martyrs certainly is more geared towards Clerics, but it also had the full Sisters career in there. Book of Judgement - obviously an Arbite book - but then what about Daemon Hunter? What career was that geared towards? From my perspective I think they were - even if Daemon Hunter didn't fit within that schema - but we don't know what the future holds for Dark Heresy (other than it's not cancelled!), so it might be too early to say.


But let's leave those old preview PDF's behind. Almost everything on them has been released, and the last two things that haven't have at the very least been officially announced and previewed.


BYE

On further consideration, I think Only War is a better idea than I had done. Why tie even more crunch to the creaking DH system? I'm now of the opinion new DH 1.0 supplements should focus on background (e.g. more details of Inquisition politics) and leave the rules to  the newer systems.

Hehateme said:

DH isn't getting a supplement for every career though (and didn't get one for Inquisitors), but some people really want to believe that.

Book of Judgement had a lot for Scum and Arbites, but was largely a general book on crime and law in the Imperium. Blood of Martyrs had a lot for Soriritas and Priests, but again it's was for the most part a general book on religion in the Imperium. People ASSUMED that Only War was going to be along the similar vein, and even had it been so, by no means was it going to be THE book for the Guardsman career (no, based on previous releases it would have been generally about war, with some extra attention to Guardsmen.. and maybe another career or two).

They're 'class books' in the loosest sense of the word.

Delazar78 said:

Firstly, don't count on it. Secondly, don't beg for it that much, as a publishing scheme is has its own issues.

When WW did it (am I like the only person here who's ever played any of their games, btw?) they always included enough material in the "core rules" book to let you play something. In the case of Exalted, it was the Solars. In the case of the nWoD, it was mortals... what, praytell, do people think should be in a 40K RPG "core rules" book that lets you actually play something with that book alone? Because do I really need to explain that people WILL complain about a book full of rules that's useless for anything else (not to mention the way that would encourage people to pirate it)? Likewise the "campaign expansions" aren't going to be $30. Every 'fatsplat' for Exalted or the nWoD, was a big thick hardcover, easily over $30 in price. Why? Because they decided to take the room saved and fill it up with other juicy stuff related to the book's subject, because they could. Oh yeah, and there was ALWAYS rewritten material, no matter what, even if just a rehash of the character creation rules.

So... what do we do, stick DH in there too? Okay, we're back to the "core rules" book being $60 again. And then we get to listen to the person coming along to buy RT or whatever, complain about having to buy the DH book along with (instead of just having a seperate book with core rules... or our current setup). :P

Sometimes I think I've been a gamer for far too long...

Edit: And to give my two cents on DH, I think FFG is currently weighing the pros and cons of going in to a 2nd edition of it (and very probably only DH), though I don't entirely echo the complaints that most have with it (you have the crappiest acolyte team in the galaxy if minor powers make them all obselete).

I personally prefer the DH rules. With a little bit of a polish (clear up the unclear things), and a couple of the things from newer books (the only ones I can think of at the moment are the greater options for after a grapple, and the new Righteous Fury rules) and I think they would be fine. I personally don't actually like the change to melee attacks in BC(I didn't think there was a problem with the mechanics in the first place. The problem was with how they were used in Deathwatch), or the streamlining of the skills list.

I agree with Borithan. Although honestly have no interest in BC, and so don't know the rules changes in it, I always enjoyed DH. I also seem to be in a minority to prefer the psyker rules there, with the threshold numbers and whatnot, as it is far more unique, interesting, and random. The overbleed and '9' roll to invite catastrophe are much more flavorful and captivating than another bland skill roll.

In all, I'm not particulary excited about Only War being a whole game system, it seems like a mini version of DW. The scope may be different, but the options are even more limited, as guardsmen aren't likley to ever meet planetary governors or be jetsetting to faraway blasetd landscapes to kill vile enemies and steal ancient artifacts. I'm not trying to bash the guard, but face the reality that being an infantry private vs being a genehanced supersoldier are really two sides to the same coin, only that one side is much bigger than the other.

I just think the most interesting gaming oppertunites for OW charachters might be a 'saving private ryan' or 'Big Red One' or (although there's no movie yet, there will be) Shaikot Valley, Afghanistan. Then what? I'm not really into an Eldar game either, but I think there's enough of an umbrella already outh there to fit all of this stuff into exisiting lines.

I was very much against the changes BC made to combat, but over time (and after playing it) I came around and started to like it.

Really it brought more parallels between ranged and melee attacks into the rules and allowed melee attacks to slot into existing types of rules (eg. how Dodge worked against multiple ranged hits now works in the same way vs melee). In the end I like the fact that there are ‘tiers’ of attacks, so Semi-Auto and Swift Attack now follow the same mechanic, rather than one being multiple hits based on DOS and the other being separate attacks rolled individually.

It also allowed the introduction of Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill bonuses, broadening the scope of what could interact with those values, and allowing previously unscalable Talents to suddenly scale (Mighty Shot and Crushing Blow causing extra damage based on how skilled you are makes a lot more sense than being a flat value that never changes).

I don’t agree with every consolidation – I don’t mind Climb/Swim being turned into Athletics, but I think Concealment and Silent Move were different enough to leave as separate Skills – but I think that the BC method went a long way to freeing up a lot of the rules, especially in the prevalence of (X) values after certain rules (so Concussive becoming Concussive (X), Primitive becoming the logical opposite of Proven, and so on).

The only thing BC lacks IMO are fail conditions. There needs to be a Jamming mechanic that works with melee attacks, and downsides to really screwing up a Parry/Dodge. No Test should so automatic that there’s no point in rolling the dice. Again, a bigger problem in Deathwatch than anywhere else, but still.

BYE

Lionus said:

I hope you realise that most of what you just said was levelled at Deathwatch when it was first announced, that the scope was too small, that you couldn't role-play a Marine, that Marines were 1 dimensional, and that "killing stuff all the time" would make for a dull game? That said all of that about Deathwatch, and now you're saying much the same things about Only War.

So I'll give the same responce:

You get out of an RPG what you put into an RPG. If you approach this game thinking it has limited scope, then it will have limited scope. If you approach the game thinking that you can only do X with it, then X is all you’ll get.

BYE

 I actually thought playing astartes was a hela cool idea from the start. As far a roleplaying guardsmen, well i did my 4 years as a grunt and as a drilling reservist in the U.S. Army, I feel pretty confident that experience gives me a pretty clear idea of what people like guardsmen do. Its not cool, fun or particularly exciting except when its terrifying. You spend more time training and planning than anything else and 90% of the time its madeningly boring. This probably sounds more bitter than I actually feel, but space marines are people of destiny. Guardsmen are just people. Thats not wrong, its just already covered in two systems. Three with BC.

H.B.M.C. said:

OOOoohhh Yeeeaaaah!  Never a truer statement about RPGs.  

We're still playing Dark Heresy, only one real house rule, and we're still lovin' it.

We play what we call 'Rambo Edition' Dark Heresy, where everyone has 30+ wounds, and I amended all the adversaries to have 30+ wounds and combat takes hours! In hindsight it really wasn't the best idea, but we are having fun.

When we hit Ascension we're going to have a 'rationalisation' and bring everything back down to normal levels.

BYE

Cifer said:

and this whole distinction between superhuman elite warriors whose deeds change the outcome of battles and rank-and-file cannon fodder grunts who are tossed into the trench to slow down the enemy for a few hours with their lives makes me wonder how Only War will play out.

But we will see when the book is here! I am curious, a little bit skeptic, but not annoyed or outraged. I will certainly get the book and see what it is like.

I had the same questions when Deathwatch was announced: where is the roleplaying potential in this game? The way we play it now is like an action-RPG with lots of cool scenes and heroic fights. Military missions with little inbetween them. Works just fine.

Dark Heresy however, in my opinion remains the most broadly scoped and best suited approach to roleplaying in the W40,000 universe!

H.B.M.C. said:

I wasn't terribly bothered about the fact that melee and ranged attacks used different methods. In fact I quite liked it. It was a problem in Deathwatch, but that was only because multiple attacks were treated like something that should be a special ability of the Assault Marine's (though I do realise the problem of making distinct "classes" for Space Marines).

Since my fiancee and a few friends I often play with dislike Space Marines (they find the whole concept tedious), but like the idea of playing a game where they can bring in the sort of feel from Commissar Cain and Gaunt's Ghosts, Only War will be a definite buy for me

To each their own.

Though I've always found playing a Space Marine to be quite fun. I suppose the Horus Heresy novels have really helped get me in to the subject more. There are some similarities to the 'band of brothers' feeling evoked by Only War. You read Flight of the Eisenstein you read about Death Guard Captain Garro and his "Honour Brother". It gives me idea that they're far more than killing machines that can't think past warfare.. usually.

The interplay between the group and their varying personalities and beliefs is where it's at outside of combat. They have to depend on each other, and the kind of bonds that can be forged while fighting with the Deathwatch are very strong. I want my White Scar to party with a Space Wolf!