Hi, 

One of the players in my group wants to "upgrade" his bolter to a daemon weapon, using the nurgle daemon they encountered during Broken Chains. I've read through the rules but I have trouble understanding it all. This is how I interpreted it. First you summon the daemon with the necessary ritual and then you make a Daemonic mastery test to inject it into the item? If one succeds, what decides how many times one can roll one the charts? I guess the binding strength decides but here's the problem. The book have an example where a bloodletter have been bound. It have a total binding strength of 1 and a WP bonus of 3, therefore will roll two times. So…. WP bonus - Binding strength = number of times rolling? If so, then the character who wants to make a daemon weapon will be rolling many times. Lurgach, the Nurgle daemon, have a willpower of 50. So if There will be a DoS of two or one, does that mean he will then be required to roll three or even FOUR times!? + infamy of 25 will result in a great bolter. Should I take away the infamy score or deliberatly lower the Wp?

 

Also, the characteristic damage everyone will suffer in the aftermath, is it permanent? 2D10 damage to all if I'm not mistaken. What reason to have a daemonic bolter when you can't even hit something with it. Must the summoner spend exp later on to replenish his lost strength, agility, fellowship and the rest or will they all regenerate slowly over time?

That's all I can come up with for now.  

One of the players in my group wants to "upgrade" his bolter to a daemon weapon, using the nurgle daemon they encountered during Broken Chains. I've read through the rules but I have trouble understanding it all. This is how I interpreted it. First you summon the daemon with the necessary ritual and then you make a Daemonic mastery test to inject it into the item? If one succeds, what decides how many times one can roll one the charts? I guess the binding strength decides but here's the problem. The book have an example where a bloodletter have been bound. It have a total binding strength of 1 and a WP bonus of 3, therefore will roll two times. So…. WP bonus - Binding strength = number of times rolling? If so, then the character who wants to make a daemon weapon will be rolling many times. Lurgach, the Nurgle daemon, have a willpower of 50. So if There will be a DoS of two or one, does that mean he will then be required to roll three or even FOUR times!? + infamy of 25 will result in a great bolter. Should I take away the infamy score or deliberatly lower the Wp?

Firstly, you indeed summon the Daemon, likely via a summoning ritual like those detailed on page 229 and 230. To control it, the summoner makes a Daemonic Mastery Test.
Secondly, you enact another ritual, Forge the Accursed Weapon (page 200). This involves no Daemonic Mastery Test yet, but the test described in the ritual text (Forbidden Lore Warp or Daemonology, starting at -60). You are then correct in that the number of ability rolls are depending on the WP bonus minus Binding strength, although only one of those rolls has the Infamy score added to it - so only one of its abilities has a chance to be, for example, Stream of Corruption or Pestilent Stench. Of course, once the Daemon Weapon has been created, the prospective wielder must indeed Daemonically Master its occupant (though this might be redundant if the wielder is also the summoner of the daemon that initially cowed it in the first ritual).

Sounds like you'd like as little degrees of success on the ritual as possible? Initially, yes, but there's a catch: Every point of binding strength (which makes the weapon weaker ability-wise) makes the daemon suffer a penalty of 5 points on daemonic mastery tests. Now consider that you have to roll Daemonic Mastery against the bound daemon every single time the character is stunned, rendered unconscious or suffers enough WP damage that his WP falls below that of the daemon. Sure, take that once-bound bolter. And have lots of infamy points ready to reroll daemonic mastery so you don't get posessed (see page 142) by your own weapon that will roll its 45 remaining Willpower against yours whenever it senses a weakness…

(Also note that infamy points of Nurgle-aligned PCs can't be used to reroll tests… )

 

Also, the characteristic damage everyone will suffer in the aftermath, is it permanent? 2D10 damage to all if I'm not mistaken. What reason to have a daemonic bolter when you can't even hit something with it. Must the summoner spend exp later on to replenish his lost strength, agility, fellowship and the rest or will they all regenerate slowly over time?

Unless the characteristic damage is explicitly called "permanent", it never is. You regenerate one point of a trait per day.
(That also means you should not touch the weapon until your WP has regenerated to semi-safe levels!)

What he said. Unless you have a very powerful will, mastering the uber weapon is going to be a pain in the bum. Let him dig his own grave.

He'd be far better off and safer upgrading his weapon to a Legacy. Their abilities are not as powerful, but its much easier to get/create one and it doesn't try to take over your soul every other fight.

Of course, no Daemon or Dark God is gonna tell him that, is it?

On the other hand, having a legacy weapon means you can't switch between it and anything else that is ranged. Better hope you don't encounter anything that your boltgun can't touch…

Cifer said:I agree. The choice of a legacy weapon should be carefully considered. My advice to the person would be either prepare for the cost of your choice, of find a weaker willed deamon.

Hello,

My character recently created a daemon weapon out of a Lord of Change, with a binding strength of 16, which meant the daemon rolled with -80 to the check. This naturally means the weapon only has one roll on the ability table, but that really didn't matter as the damage and pen bonuses are quite nice already. The ability I rolled was Sorcerous Force, which makes the weapon function like a force sword, but using the bound daemon's willpower (80) to determine the extra damage. 

I had a bit of an easier time doing this since my character is aligned to Tzeentch, so I made sure I had the mastery-talent for Forbidden Lore Daemonology to begin with, then I had a few assistants who all added 1 DoS per helper, after which I used an infamy point to add a further 1d5 success levels. 

You should remember that the daemonic mastery test for controlling the daemon uses the summoning modifiers - so, if you are aligned to nurgle, know the daemon's true name etc. you are already rolling with quite a hefty set of bonuses.

 

Kbobsky said: Hello. You have a very nice GM. Most GMs I have played with would not have let that happen. I wasnt able to find the specifics of aiding on my pdf on my phone in a quick search, but here is what my gms, self included, would do. First, the assisstants would have to each be able to pass the checks involved as well, they would have to assist in the whole process too, not just a part. For example each assistant would have had to master the deamon in order to force it into the weapon. Second, and this isnt RaW,, but my gms would rule that all those assistants would interfere with your mastery, pick one or the other. Third, did you use the rules for summoning a greater deamon found in tome of blood, or just the rules for a lesser deamon? A greater deamon summoned into reality is a rather traumatic event that has a decent chance of killing alot of people just by its arrival, regardless of any mastery attempts being made, i dont know what you use as assistants, but I have doubts that they would survive the event long enough to help at all. But fortunatly your GM is very very lenient.

Hi,

Assisting in this case was for the bit that mattered - the binding. 

The rules in BC handle assisting a bit differently from other books, as far as I can remember how they do it: If you have the skill in question, you can give one extra level of success to the binder, without a skill roll.

All the characters assisting got to share in the corruption and attribute damage from the ritual, but as we didn't have Tome of Blood available at that time, we used the regular summoning rules. 

Basically, if you have the right mark etc. summoning the daemon becomes rather easy. Ofcourse the -60 to the binding roll is nasty, but with the Master y talent, it's not really an issue, since you're not even rolling for the binding check, instead you're just spending an infamy point to gain intelligence bonus number of success levels.

As to the leniency of the GM, I think it boils down to the fact that our campaign doesn't really hinge on our weapons, or martial prowess of single characters. We're imperial citizens on Malfi, working to bring about a civil war and disrupting the Koronus Crusade supply route. I've often regretted spending any points outside of charm, deceive, fellowship and peer-talents before maxing them out.

M

 

Don't mastery give you these DoS only when all summed modifiers are at least +0 (I don't really remember as we don't use this talent). Also I think that max bonus from assisting characters is capped at +20.

Yes mastery only applies when the Final modifer is +0 or better

No skill levels are not capped at +20 as per the other systems, skills can get up to +30 but mastery no longer gives the +10 to the skill

 

In regards to getting that +0 modifyer, its quite easier if you have assistance

"only the character who is actually making the test rolls the dice, but every other character giving assistance reduces the difficulty of the test by one step. If the test succeeds, the character performing the test gains an extra Degree of Success."

Now there are limits, One of which is that only 2 characters can assist with a test, As a GM i would say there is exemptions to this rule, yes only two people can help breaking down a door but 5 or 6 people sitting around a table working out a battle plan (tactics) totally makes sense. AND it doesnt have to be other PC's so minions and NPCs are free to help

But if your GMs being strict with the rules only 2 can help, but that is still reducing the difficulty by two steps so the hellish test is now Arduous (-40)

now depending on your interpretation of the rules,Items which gives bonuses to skill tests (combi-tools, Auspex) count as modifiers to the test it self; so if you happened to have good quality cerebal implants (+20 to lore tests) that would mean the forbidden lore test is now at Hard (-20)

All you need now is a couple of the summoning modifers (ie weapons creation reflects the nature of the patron god which is easily enough done with the good aplication of slaves)

if your still stuck at getting the extra few points, see about aquireing a couple of text from places such as Q'sal (ie Deamon weapons for dummies)

Now that you are at +0 spend the Infamy point and automatically suceed, with a lot of degrees of sucess

Cryhavok said:

 

 

tl; dr "Screw you, player, for daring to have your PC do anything impressive."

Terraneaux said: No, more like, " If to are going to do something impressive, its going to be impressive, not just simply handed to you." Remember, he didnt just reduce the modifiers to 0, he got 16 degrees of success, making the binding strength sixteen and making a greater deamon incapable of resisting. Not I mentioned I wasnt sure on some of the rules, but, by the rules he would not have had that many assistants adding to his roll. Besides does assistance add +10 or add degrees of success? If it is +10, then bypassing the roll with mastery would bypass the assistance as well.

Cryhavok said:

 

Each assistant on a task effective gives +10 (by lowering the difficulty by one step) and also grants one additional DoS if the test is successful (Core rulebook p. 38).  Of course, you're limited to two assistants in most cases.  OP said 'a few' so assuming he's got two assistants, he's got 2+ Int bonus intial degrees of success (which could easily be like 8 if he's got cranial implants or demon organs).  Add another one for the unnatural 2 for Cranial Implants, and then roll a 5 on that d5 you get for the infamy point, and you're at 16 DoS completely legit.  Of course, you've just made a greater demon into a demon weapon with only one ability, which kind of defeats the point.

 

However, the particulars of the circumstance that you replied aren't really that important, but your endorsement of punishing game mechanic alteration against a character trying to create a powerful demon weapon is.  The assistance rules exist for a reason, so that a chaos-worshipping magus can have his expendable, snivelling cultists help him with this kind of stuff.  The insistance that each member of a ritual have to complete the separate parts of a ritual on their own smacks of a knee-jerk reaction nerf without the understanding of how the mechanics involved actually work, as it makes having assistants on a task like this functionally useless.

Terraneaux said: 1- Okay looked it up, I see the assistance stff, I see the into to DoS, cranial implants makes it more reasonable. I dont see where the d5 roll comes in. Please point me to that in the book. And thanks for the assistance page number. 2- The part of the post you are refering to is referancing what I would do without the rules involved, because I did not know them. Me, and any GM I have played with, would follow the rules as long as they are clear, which these ones are now that Ive found them. I stand by my point that being able to do that to a greater deamon is rediculous though. If it was that easy, Q'Sal and the hallows would be stock full of ultra bound greater deamons. I would also like to point out that the player in question usdd the summon lesser deamon rules rather than the summon greater deamon rules.

Cryhavok said:

The 1d5 extra dos comes from the ability for Tzeentch-aligned characters to spend an infamy point for an additional 1d5 DoS on any test.

And I don't see how the ability for a massively skilled (He has Skill Mastery for Forbidden Lore, guy's a fucking master) sorcerer to bind a greater Daemon in any way says Q'sal should be full of 'em. First of all, Q'sal, while big on magic, is probably not full to the brim of sorcerers THAT capable. Even if it was, Greater Daemons are volatile, dangerous entities, and many would probably be unwilling to gamble the risk of pissing one off for the ability to get a rather impressive sword. And, even assuming they were, Greater Daemons are also long-lived, vindictive bastards with long memories.

So, in the end, Q'sal's mightiest sorcerers would have to dedicate significant resources, risk massive danger and the eternal hatred and rage of a Greater Daemon in exchange for a sword that's kinda better than any other sword.

Which I'm sure they'll have a lot of use for on the planet that they rule and that's full of people that do their fighting for them while they explore dark sorcerous mysteries. 

As for the wrong ritual, the poster has already made it clear they didn't have the right book, so they rightly made something up instead of waiting around to do something because FFG hadn't gotten around to publishing the rules for it yet.

All in all, pretty mild work for what a dedicated Tzeentchian bastard can do. Once you reach the mid-game and higher, a Tzeentch Psyker can walk around with unnatural willpower +20 without much issue, for more or less the entire day, every day. Which, for a psyker, is helluva lot scarier than having a +8 damage force sword. Hell, get that guy a regular force sword and he's outdoing the daemon by about 8d10's worth of armor and toughness bypassing death.