Yeah, I did read your post.

Antistone said:

If you understand the intention and agree that it's laid out clearly or at least clearly enough that anyone with any amount of deductive reasoning could infer the meaning then why are you arguing it and claiming that it needs an errata in the first place?

 And just to get this out of the way:

Page 7, Hero Turn Summary

"4. Flip Activation Card. After a hero player has finished performing his actions, that hero player flips his Activation card facedown to indicate that his turn is over"

Clear as crystal, same wording as in Stand-Up, there's no missing rule that the authors forgot to reference.

"After the player flips his Activation card, another hero begins his turn."

Once you flip over that card it is no longer your turn, end of story.

Again, read my earlier posts:

Antistone said:

 Well I'll refer you to my post just above yours, as you were probably replying while I was writing it.

WittyDroog said:

The same phrasing is used in the Hero Turn Summary and we know it's wrong there. Unfortunately  we can't read thise rules like they are strict and correct. The FAQ will be glorious.

 What do you mean "We know it's wrong there"?

It says a hero "indicates his turn is over" after his actions, technically leaving no time for a familiar to activate. We know this is wrong because a familiar can activate after their hero's actions.

WittyDroog said:

No offense, but are you reading the other posts in this thread?  Because it sure doesn't look like you're tracking any of the arguments that have been made so far in this discussion, even after people have specifically replied to you and explained them in greater detail.  I don't think you've raised a single new and relevant point anywhere in your last five posts, at least.

Don't worry WittyDroog and don't go back to read about sandwiches. No one besides the game designer and his posse has any special knowledge or understanding of the rules that you don't have. Until there is an errata that says otherwise the guy's turn ends when he flips his card. Now it seems to me that you can activate a familiar without using an action before your hero stands up which ends his turn. Problem solved. Just don't try to activate after you stand up. Now, I think this means that you can't burn fatigue to move even though it does not require an action because to move and to have fatigue to move with you have to stand up at which point your turn is over. This is a more than reasonable way to play until someone comes out and says: stand up is all you can do on your turn, again and in bold italics.      

Just ignore Antistone. That guy has a serious social disorder.    

Antistone said:

Dude, I have looked through this thread and guess what? Beyond a single post by Terah (which bears no evidence), you are the ONLY person debating me. And the evidence you bring to bear is contradicting and flat out false.

You make a claim that indicating your turn is over is not the same thing as actually saying your turn is over (and then you make a poor analogy to making a sandwich), I tell you that you're wrong and that the rule is pretty damn clear to which you retort "I never claimed that" as if I can't look back a page to see that's EXACTLY what you claimed.

You make the claim that the familiar rules state that it can be activated during your turn but only after the players actions and yet, right there clear as day on page 17 under Familiars:

"A hero player may activate each familiar his hero controls once during his hero turn (either before or after resolving all of his hero's actions)"

I mean how am I supposed to argue with you when you go into this irrational strict nature over symatics and yet you can't get the basic rules straight. I'm not alone in the audience of people who read something like "flips the activation card over to indicate his turn ends" and think "Oh, that must mean my turn is over because I can think critically".

Social problem is right.

Let me put why I think Antistone could be right all together into a single post.

(page 7)
Flip Activation Card: After a hero player has finished performing his actions, that hero player flips his Activation card facedown to indicate that his turn is over.
After the player flips his Activation card, another hero begins his turn.

(page 17)
A hero player may activate each familiar his hero controls once during his hero turn (either before or after resolving all of his hero’s actions).

These two rules contradict each other. Page 17 says I can activate my familiar after my actions but p7 says my turn is over and another hero's turn has already started.

Is p7 right, p17 wrong and you cannot activate your familiar after your actions? Maybe but it seems unlikely to me and I've never seen anyone suggest this. So let's consider the only alternative. What if p17 is an exception to p7, an exception that p7 omits to mention? Well the stand-up rules on p10 use the exact same phrase to end your turn as used on p7, maybe they omit the exact same exception.

(Page 10)
To stand up, the player rolls two red power dice…[snipped]… and then flips his Activation card facedown to indicate his turn is over (he may not perform an additional action).

Terah said:

If you're taking page 7 to mean that after the hero player uses up his second "Action" his turn is immediately done, that would mean you can only perform "free" actions like using items and skills before making the second action. Furthermore it would mean that Rest would never actually recover your fatigue, since that happens at the end of your turn, and thus if nothing can happen between performing your second action, and turning your card over meaning your turn is now completed, nothing that says "end of your turn" could ever happen.

Since I don't see any reason why a stamina potion or other item could be used between the hero's second action and the end of his turn, it makes sense that a familiar could be activated during that same period.

As for page 7 and page 17 being contradictory because they both say something happens "after performing all actions", that seems like a clear case of the golden rule where a card or other rule is intended to override something in the basic rules. It's the same for basically anything that happens at the "end of your turn" even though nothing the basic rules doesn't have to necessarily have a step saying "carry out any actions or effects that occur at the end of your turn".

As for using Stand Up, the terminology is exactly the same as page 7, the only difference is normally you choose when you are finished all your actions (including free actions, familiar activation, etc.) and turn the card over. Stand Up forces you to do so immediately after standing up, which doesn't leave any room for the player to choose to do anything else.

That's my take anyway, the ambiguity between actions and "Actions" is definitely at the root of all this and I can definitely see some of it going either way.

What I can't see is how one would assume that because it says "indicate his turn is over", that it might not really be over because it was just "indicated", that's just completely ridiculous. If you're going to take it that way, then any time you put a wound on your hero card to indicate you have taken a wound, or put an item card next to your hero to indicate the hero has equipped that item, then you could just be "pretending" because all you did was "indicate" that it happened.

The action confusion is totally on FFG for not picking different clearer terms, but if you're told to flip your hero card over to indicate your turn is over, YOUR TURN IS OVER.

Wow. I can't believe 3 pages over something so simple. Both page 7 and page 17 are correct. Page 7 is what happens for every typical player. But, just like a card thats text overrides a rule in the book, or an errata overrides a rule or a new expansion set overrides a rule, the just happened to include it in the same rule book.

Where everyone else has to flip the card to end their turn, the Necromancer get to insert "activate your animate" after all your actions are taken and before your card is flipped. Why is this such a big deal?

wootersl said:

I applaud you.

wootersl said:

One might also think of one's re-animated monster as a separate entity from the hero.  I think that many of us are envisioning the Necromancer working some magic every time the re-animate moves, thus requiring some kind of (lowercase "a") action on his part.  Is there something wrong with ending your turn and THEN starting the re-animate's turn before any of the other heroes' turns?