ScottieATF said:

Way to keep it civil and stay classy, bro.

"So clumping you TiEs together becomes less attractive when facing down Assault Missile wielding craft. So what if you split up and collapse in?"

What are the implications and far reaching effects of this? If you do not ALSO have Assault Missiles, your opponent can deploy in a tight formation and make use of full focus-fire. While you have to deploy spread out and surrender an advantage to your opponent in the initial approach. That is a problem on it's own, it means to play the first few turns on level ground everyone will have to take missiles, or only ONE person will have to adjust their play, and by 'adjust their play' of course in this context, we mean give up a good board position and deal far less focused damage in the opening volleys. So regardless of ANY other considerations you agree with me on that point, Assault Missiles force a specific kind of deployment.

Take a moment, continue down that line of reasoning and ask yourself if it's worth 5 points to be completely dominant in the opening few turns. Yes, you can adjust your tactics and play around it, but in not taking it yourself you are granting your opponent an advantage that's worth well over 5 points. Having assault missiles in the game does not force everyone to play like there's assault missiles in the game, just the people who are sitting across the table from them. So why would you not take them?

Really? You're also claiming the A-Wing is 'less than ideal?' Those things are extremely strong, they're basically a TIE that's markedly better in defense (1 more HP total, 2 hits immune to criticals) and offense (Target lock) and pretty comparable in maneuver. They don't get barrel roll, but they get boost instead.

Also if only the Falcon/Slave I could carry the missiles to begin with, I would have no problem with it at all.

TIE swarms do not work if you can't stick close and focus-fire. In fact they're a poor list if spread out. I've played them both ways and really only had success if I can stay in tight formation for the initial approach. So while I don't know about the damage Assault Missiles can do, I have seen what deploying spread out does to the TIE swarm and it takes the teeth right out of it.

Of course at this point I'm really just reiterating what I've already said in other posts for your benefit. Hopefully you'll choose to read the points this time instead of instantly assuming that FFG is somehow infallible and that I must be drawing false conclusions because I disagree with your knee-jerk reaction of assuming that Assault Missiles must be balanced because they made it through playtesting.

Also you seem to think that I feel like Assault Missiles are a 'harbinger of ruin' that will destroy the game. I never said that. I never said they would make the game imbalanced or anything else, but there is one problem with what they will do to the competitive game in the limiting of strategic and tactical options available to players at a competitive level. TIE swarms are not as viable as they were before, and I would actually say they're probably not a very good list, then to control your opponent's deployment and not surrender an advantage in the first few turns, you have an auto-include A-Wing or TIE Advanced with Assault Missiles. That's about a quarter of your points (Probably more), so you effectively have one build now closed off to you if you played Imperials and you have 25% fewer points to customize your force with. I think it adversely effects the game in that it will place limitations on competitive lists, but no. I don't think that it will ruin the game or any other foolishness like that.

"no one likes to feel like they wasted their money but honestly if you are the type of person to own 8 ties in the first place im fairly sure you've gotten your money's worth already :) "

Not too fond of the implication there. You can ask any of the folks I play with, I run a TIE swarm because it's themely and I like the list. I intend to run all A-Wings for Rebels when they come out and paint them up green for Green Squadron. I'm not in it just for the competition, so no, I haven't really gotten my money's worth. Good game design would dictate that rather than removing viable strategies to keep the metagame from stagnating, you add new ones that are on-par. Honestly, I love TIE Interceptors with Expert Handling. That combo seems like a ton of fun, I'm sure there will be new and viable Imperial builds, so we would've stopped seeing as much of the swarm. If FFG felt swarm lists were overpowered (And they would've had to have made that decision MONTHS ago, then the proper way to mitigate that would be to give Rebels more defensively oriented abilities or pilot cards that would allow them to better defend against a swarm, this levels the playing field while keeping swarms viable. The way they chose to deal with it means there is one less build in the game.

DrUnK3n_PaNdA said:

You're invalidating your own point here. To carry Assault missiles into the fight if you didn't already want to run one of the missile capable ships is expensive and limits your own options as much as the enemies. It's good against one type of list and one type of deployment and that's about it. And it's not a certainty that it'll even hit. That's a big gamble to fight just Tie swarms and not any other imperial or rebel build. And if you're going to play in tournys and such you probably won't have the luxury of knowing what you'll be fighting.

DrUnK3n_PaNdA said:

DrUnK3n_PaNdA said:

And just because your non-elite TIEs don't have upgrade slots doesn't mean that some of the upcoming cards won't help them. Or upcoming ships for that matter. Rookie pilots can certainly benefit from Biggs. There could be a 'Flares' card that diverts missiles for all we know. It's only a matter of time before they introduce countermeasures into the game, in my opinion. So why not now? It could easily be that there's a one use countermeasure card that for less points than Assault Missiles will completely protect you from their effects for that first turn you so covet.

We just….don't….know. So let's cool the jets already. If you're still so convinced, maybe you should focus on enjoying what time you've got left before your favorite (only?) tactic kicks the bucket instead of complaining about something you can't control that's going to happen regardless. Go have fun!

 Honestly, I cant really see how game changing it would be for now, especially since it is still relatively untested. If my opponent is only fielding 1 or 2 of this new missile only, I'd continue flying together at him, missile or no missile. If by some stroke of luck he hits one of my TIEs with evade, then ok fine all my TIEs take 1 damage each, does this kill them? nope. Will it make them more likely to die? Yes definitely since all of them are now running on 2 hp. In exchange, I'm dead sure I will be fielding a squad with more ships than him because of how high cost a ship with that specific missile is going to be, so with 8 TIEs firing on any one of his ship in one turn he's pretty much dead as well, in exchange fo none of my TIEs being dead. he still has to take down my TIEs one by one, and it's not like any excess hits will rollover to the next TIE or anything (ie. if he takes down a TIE with 1 hp remaining with 4 solid hits, it's not like those extra 3 hits would somehow magically flow over to another TIE that's still alive). At most I'd probably be more inclined to choose evade a bit more frequently than usual, but it's not like im not already doing so already even before this missile came into existence. tl;dr, if he's bring anything less than 3 missiles, I'd continue flying my 8 TIEs in the exact same setup and there is nothing he can do about it. If he fires off them both and both score a hit, then well too bad you lucked out. If only 1 or none of the hits, it's still business as usual, even if all 8 of your TIEs took that 1 damage. You say that you play the TIE swarm rather frequently, Im sure you'd agree that on an average day you could end the game with 1-3 unmolested TIEs. So there's really not too much of a threat here, unless he is fielding 3 or more missile, or he's fielding 2 and you are on an unlucky streak. If he is only fielding 1 missile and hopes to scare you, then too bad for him, you will continue raping him with the usual TIE swarm formation and there's nothing he can do about it, even if his sole missile hits.

hothie said:

Fair point, but won't these also affect friendly ships within range of your target?  So, using them later might not be a good option.

If they can also hit friendly ships, this represents a notable limitation (if you don't use them early you may not get to without also damaging yourself).

DrUnK3n_PaNdA said:

We don't know this for sure.  Maybe there will be an elite talent card that prevents area attacks from taking effect.  There are three TIEs that can take elite talents, including one generic 14 point TIE.

Or, maybe there will an upgrade that takes out another / opposing  ship's upgrade (so, if you attack first you can take out their AM).

Or, maybe there is a typo that means it can only be used in large ships (there have been significant typos before).

Not to mention that each card will cost you $20 (assuming you only get one with each larger ships). 

There are options as well.

Right now only TIE Advanced X1 can take missiles.  These are pretty pricey, as are the Falcon and Slave 1 (assuming it also has missiles).  So, in 100 point squad you may not be able to have too many AM anyway. For example, do we know if the TIE Interceptor or A-Wing have missiles?  If they don't, or if they cost enough, this will not be a huge problem anyway. 

In fact, at 5 points for this upgrade, I'll bet it doesn't have a huge effect on the game (especially if it only comes in the larger ships which cost $20).  Here's why:

(1) a side can have 3 max if they go with this upgrade on every ship (unless the A-Wings are very cheap now that someone confirmed they also have missiles… but that would likely make it 4 ships max… and with 2 shields and 2 hull I wouldn't really want to put my only hope in a 4 A-Wing squad, especially since you don't know what you are playing against and the Imperials will also have access to this upgrade).

(2) some will likely not hit (and you then you pretty much wasted 5 points each time they miss)

(3) you can come up with several formations to defend against (or at least minimize its effectiveness)

(4) they will be less use later in the game when you might risk damaging your own ship

(5) both sides can use them (especially if they end up being usable by TIE Interceptor, too)

(6) these will be less effective against certain squads, and since you don't know what you are playing against you may be wasting points by taking too many of these

(7) you have to have a target lock and be at range 2 or 3… not always easy to set up.  Especially if the target also has to be in your firing arc to use.

 we know for sure that the Awing can carry 1 missile

DrUnK3n_PaNdA said:

Absolutely no one has said FFG is infallible. Your bastardization of people’s clearly written arguments is completely insulting. You want to claim other posters are making knee-jerk reactions? That is completely laughable coming from the poster whose only posts on this subject have been complete knee jerk reactions.

As has been said by a number of posters you are dealing with an incomplete data set and no testing to base your conclusions on. You’ve taken your theory straight from hypothesis to conclusion with absolutely nothing real to stand it on. And you’ve done so ignoring that you don’t even have the full picture yet. On the face of that your conclusions are invalid, because they have nothing that makes them actual conclusions.

As said everybody as a number of theories, thoughts, hope, fears, dreams, strategies, etc. in regards to the new options that we are getting. But to take those initial thoughts and then, with no testing, expand them into the conclusion that FFG has broken their game is just plain absurd. It is the boldest of knee jerk reactions and requires a huge amount of arrogance. Let’s never mind the fact that you continue to insist that nothing coming out to help the generic TiE when that is just false on the face of it because of Modifications and false in spirit given the synergistic abilities we’ve seen on pilots and elite upgrades that certainly benefit the generic TiE even if it cannot take them.

In summation let’s not put the 8 parsecs in front of the horse. How about you actually put some testing in with all of Wave 2 before you come to your conclusions? That way we can actually have a discussion on the subject, because right now we only have theory and groundless knee-jerk conclusions.
 

After asking a few questions over at the rules forums, I've decided I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.  To summarize…

AM do not seem all that game changing to me given that they:

(1) cost 5 points -- making them one of the most expensive upgrades,

(2) require a target lock,

(3) work only at range 2-3,

(4) require the target locked ship in your 90 degree firing arc,

(5) require that you actually hit the targeted ship -- and you've already spent your target lock so you can't reroll,

(6) that the targeted has to have one or more ships within one of them to really be worth it -- otherwise, there are cheaper alternatives,

(7) that they also effect friendly ships that happen to be near the target,

(8) are available to both sides,

(9) work only once per ship, and

(10) you have to be prepared for all types of squads and not just swarm squads.

Am I missing that makes some folks think these are a game changer (besides the fact that there is a vary remote chance that they could do a lot of harm every now and then).

I'd say the possibility of successfully using Assault Missiles to take out an opponents entire squad are approximately 3,720 to 1. Though I have been known to make mistakes… from time to time… Oh dear.

I know, I know… never tell me the odds.

 I am hiring a lawyer to begin a class action lawsuit. All purchases of this game have been completely invalidated by the impending publication of this one card. We will be demanding an immediate injunction to stop the publication of this game, and to freeze these forums. We will of course be demanding that FFG refund all our money, but will also seek punitive damages due to the mental anguish and suffering caused by the possible modification of one potential squad build's effectiveness in one style of play. This is an outrage, and justice must be done. Who's with me?

Just kidding, Inebriated ursine.

But seriously I think this card will be a lot of fun. The argument about it costing too much in real $ seems unwarranted as well. If you don't like the card at your house or in friendly games, don't use it. If you are worried about its use in tournament play, then look at the likelihood of how it will be used. First of all, how many of serious players will not be buying 1 falcon and 1 slave 1? This card looks like it will be coming with each of these ships. So most everyone will own 2 of these cards. Will many people really want to field more than 2 of these in a single 100 point squad? As someone else pointed out, that probably means taking sub-optimal squads as a rebel if you want 3 assault missiles.

Well we'll see. I didn't really make this thread to argue about it with people, but it seems increasingly difficult to have a discussion on the internet without someone being randomly inflammatory, so I give up. I'll be testing them a bit this weekend, I do know that much, but honestly I am not pleased this card is in the game, and I dislike how strong a counter it is to certain playstyles and squadron builds, because I think it's a poor miniatures game that can ever be decided off the table during force composition.

Anyway, I'll let you know how it turns out actually seeing them in play. I expect I'll be right, but I would be very pleasantly surprised if I were not.

Just played it. Report in the Battle Reports section.

DrUnK3n_PaNdA said:

You know I, personally speaking, find a person asserting admittedly untested and incomplete theory as fact in the ruin or at least down turn of a game extremely inflammatory.  And based on this thread I do beieve most people agree, so lets lay off the victim card please.

Secondly if that is you take on what makes a poor miniatures game, then there has never been a good one made.  Every miniatures game features bad match ups even among top builds.  Warmachine which is incredibly diverse and often used as an example of a balanced table-top game features many possible match ups decided in list building.  Even among tournament viable lists. 

What is good today in an expanding game may not be good tomorrow.  New options enhance, add to, and supplant old options in order to expand on the game.  An old play style being invalidated is not a strict negative so long that they new addition offer a net increase in variety.  You bought an expanding game, to conclude a current playstyle would be forever viable is not at all logical.

To put it plainly your assertion are unbacked and your expectation are unrealistic.