Sure eye-hand coordination plays a part in standard "aiming". But this is the warp we're talking about. Would it be so strange if your telekinesis-controlled weapon would be able to point at whatever you're looking at whilst being a few meters to your side?

Well… yes. Because as mentioned the power is part of the telekinesis portfolio. There's no divination involved, no extrasensory perception that might lead you to know where the weapon points or let the weapon know where you want it to point. Otherwise, why not go for a cogitator that is able to just implement, compile and run any program you'd like although the psyker doesn't even have tech-use? A Valkyrie that can be commanded to fly anywhere you'd like (using the power on the controls, obviously)? Because that is the logical outcome of allowing the power to do something you couldn't manually direct it to do: Who needs skills when you've got Precision Omniscience Telekinesis?
And let's be honest there: Psykers are the group that least needs a boost in power.

For shooting without sighting along the barrel, see the hip shooting talent. If they had hip shooting, or some form of sensory connection to the weapon, either one, I would allow it. If they didn't I would treat it like blind fighting personally, still possible, but far more unlikely. As for the possibility of shooting something while not having a down the barrel perspective, It is something that can be trained for and learned, and anyone who has used a remote control gun should know that.

@Cryhavok

I think there's still some difference between shooting from the hip (which generally shares at least one axis with your eyes) and shooting from someplace else entirely. As for the remote control gun, presumably they'd have some kind of camera equipment, wouldn't they?

Cifer said: Actually hip shooting is not quite on a vertical axis with your eyes, it is off to the side, just not very far. Hip shooting would be easier to get used to though. No you dont need a camera, although having one allows you to skip actually learning to fire a remote gun without one, the camera would be alot easier. All you really need is a consistant position in relation to the gun and your eyes. The rest is pretty much triangulation. Although eyeballing it is difficult to learn to do, I can fire a remote rifle fairly accurately, but as I said, it was difficult to get where Im at with it, and if you change the "positional relationship between you and the gun youll have to adjust your aim.

Personally I think if I were to be the gm for someone who was trying to do the precision telekenisis gun thing here is how I would handle it: If they put sufficient work into developing the technique allow them to take an elite advance for it, requiring hipshooting. Without that advance I would apply the blind fighting rules, with the exception being no penalty to suppressive fire.

Everyone in this thread is a goddamn rules lawyer.

Boss Gitsmasha said:All GMs are rules lawyers. Its part of the job description buddy. You have to know and understand the rules better than your players and make sure everyone has fun within thier structure. You have to know when it is appropriate to alter that structure for your group and you have to know how far to alter that structure before it is to much. You also have to settle any dispute over the rules in a way that satisfies the group.

If you have a problem with people doing all that together and getting other GMs perspective, then you should probably not read thier disscussions. Also you aren't qualified to know wheather or not god has damned any of us.

Cryhavok said:

I thought GMs were supposed to be storytellers first and foremost, to help create an engaging and exciting tale for the players to take part in. Going against the spirit in which the rules were intended is not part of the GM's description, and anyone who does this is not a GM I'd want to play with. Weapon downgrades are not supposed to HELP a player. Like I said, they're called downgrades for a reason. You only take them because it's the only way to get a piece of equipment that otherwise is unavailable to you. If a downgrade becomes beneficial, then it ceases to be a downgrade.

Also, if you want to go down that route, since you're posting on the Black Crusade board, you're certainly damned in the God-Emperor's eyes. And he's the only god that matters to honest, faithful Imperial citizens.

or the player could get a psycic minion with mind link and be able to "see" the target from wherever there minin was- boom a 40kafied camara gun.

@Boss Gitsmasha

I thought GMs were supposed to be storytellers first and foremost, to help create an engaging and exciting tale for the players to take part in.

That's your choice, of course. Personally, I prefer to be more or less equal parts storyteller, abjudicator, audience and world engine. And I've played with a few "storytellers" who seemed to view players and their actions mostly as hindrances to their perfectly-crafted plot. So why don't we leave out the name-calling and get back to the debate?

 

When was the last time you were angry at the universe for making your difficult-to-acquire golden knife much worse in cutting quality than a regular steel one? Not everything that's more difficult to get is automatically superior for every wielder in every situation.

How about simply turning the point of view around: Don't consider it a downgrade that makes the item more powerful, consider it a character trait of a 3600XP character that can turn a negative condition into a benefit.

@boss gitsmasha: You say the gm is supposed to be more storyteller than anything, but you then claim a possition on the subject at hand that completely disregards the story, realism and the actual rules to justify making a player unable to take advantage of his own abilities. Now correct me if my interpretation is wrong, but you seem to be saying that a person who has perfected the art of using battlefield conditions such as smoke, can not take advantage of smoke from a weapon that produces it, simply because it makes the weapon cheaper to buy. That is kind of pathetic and I dont know a single player that wouldnt kick out the gm and install a new one if the did things like that. How about rather than getting all bent out of shape about someone able to take advantage of a smoke belching gun, and think about how it still has downsides. Downsides like how AOEs dont even have to aim at the night lord they just aim at the smoke. Things like how even if he is hard to shoot at, he is declaring to the entire enemy force, via smoke signal, hey Im right here, plot artillery accordingly. You are so caught up on that the ability is a downgrade to the weapon, that you are completely disregarding storytelling entirely, so get off your high horse.

Also as an ork, gork and mork reject you for hiding behind the skirts of the corpse on the golden throne. And as I am not an honest imperial citizen, Im a freaking nugleite, I couldnt care less what the corpse god thinks, except to say that my god thinks his condition is coming along nicely.

Also as a gm I am the imperium of man and the god emperor, so your still not qualified to damn anyone(except your players)… Just sayin lol.

Boss Gitsmasha said:

 

Cursed Metal and high Toughness makes that particular Downgrade negligable. Throw in Regeneration to ignore it completely.

Scavanged Downgrade a weapon you're not going to hit someone with (Warp Staff and Null Rod comes to mind) and you've got a free +10 modifier.

As you can see, coming up with a workaround to Noxious Discharge ain't that horrible seeing as that particular downgrade already have a boon built-in (you're harder to hit for enemies as well).

Not wanting to get in to the role of the GM, there are 2 items that would let a psyker shoot a weapon while holding it aloft with a psykic power while maintaining 100% accuracy. The vox operated upgrade is the easiest and most direct method. Into the Storm also has a scope upgrade that a character can apply to fire around corners without exposing their head but allows all talents to be used through it (aim, called shot, dead eye shot, ect.).

Can't tell if this has already been resolved or not, but unless I'm mistaken, according to RAW, firing out of smoke doesn't carry any penalties, only firing into it.