Takith said:

Before this event were 2 big WHI tournaments in Poland and top 4 in both were Empire Verena decks (about 70% Empire on 69 players) and we now also that Italian players play Empire too. So... "Jaszczur" made his deck to beat Empire, becouse "blue" decks are the most powerful now. RTF deck can be easy stopped with Volkmar, Mannfred or Offering to Hekarti, but Empire domination don't allow decks weak against Empire to win big events. That's the point. Solution is more restriction for Empire starting with Derricksburg Forge and Judgement of Verena. I also don't understand why Soul Steeler is restricted.

Takith said:

This excatly is the problem. To win, you have to build an anti-Empire deck. If a deck works against every deck but not against Empire, it will loose a bigger tournament. Even then, Empire has great chance to win due to better economy and the only card allowing to clear opponent's side of a table easily. Jaszczur has just mastered the anti-Empire deck due to the fact that there will be many Empire decks, as they are easiest to win with.

I have seen this deck to win with Empire after Verena cleard Dwarves' side... Two zones burnt in one turn without anything except developments and a quest on table.

Anyway, this is not topic for this discussion really... CONGRATULATIONS FOR JASZCZUR, MAMUT AND ALL OTHER GUYS FROM POLAND (also for another players from top8)! You rock!

At FIRST, congrats to the winner. Really. Now that's over, I can say that in the near past I've said to my fellas: "Beware Polish players." :)

Anyway...

What happened DOES demonstrate our theory, actually: the winner deck, as far as I know, is an anti-empire built (willingly or not). :) Someone told me that it can be stopped by other decks but it's strong against Empire.

We have to meta-game guys: 8 italian players which I consider PRO as polish ones, at least. 7 of  'em went through the TOP 16...The 8th went out for a rule-mistake.

Anyway, 3 of 'em went trhough the top 8 and the other got 3rd.

In the final, 2 anti-empire decks.

That's numbers.

With all due respect, I didn't see lots of competitive decks in the world championship (and, as I said before, I don't like the winning deck...I told that I really liked the OTHER winning deck of Timoty, but not this one, that's extremely under the actual competitive decks nowadays).

About europe...Numbers confirm what we told: we have good playtesters with good decks...I don't know how many players were there, exactly, but it's pretty clear that it's quite ABSURD having basically the SAME deck in 8 copies through the finals.

Grats to the winner, as I said, but remember: from a player perspective, the winning of dwarves is a good sign, and I guess we ALL agree on that...But from a strict metagame point of view, the situation will actually change when NOONE will have to build a deck specifically against the MAIN deck.

Empire is still on the top, guys. Anti-Empire Dwarven deck was unexpected, but SERIOUS metagaming consideration cannot be done with a single tournament but on a 4-5 months of playtesting (that's how a card game is developed, created and played competitively), because if we do that, we should say that DARK ELVES are the strongest archetype, but THEY'RE definitely NOT. 

If we consider just the winning deck, avoiding any other number, we're not making a metagame analysis.

DB 

DB.Cooper said:

WORDS OF WISDOM ;-)))

World Champion's DE deck have no chance against Verena Empire crushing anything on its way except RTF Dwarves and maybe some lucky Chaos decks with Unleashing the Spell. Upcoming Orc quest will hape greenskins against Verena and Hidden Groves, but  both elves without development and support control are in the worst position against Empire and similar build like Dwarf/Empire. If FFG don't wont to force all competive players to play Empire or anti-Empire decks and kill the game there must be new restriction list, better balanced cards for Empire, stronger cards for Elves. HE and DE need some kind of develop nad support control. If they can't destroy it they can steal them, return to hand, counter or turn into developments...

DB.Cooper said:

jogo said:

Can't agree. I was playing with Mamut's RTF Dwarves with my DE on last tournament in Poland and with RTF Dwarves played by Fortep and that was easy 2-0 for me. RTF Dwarves ARE strictly anit-Empire, anti-Verena deck. Another fact is that in really big 2 events in Poland 70% decks were Verena Empire and this archetype dominate top 4 in both tournamts with 69 and 36 players. It's not a luck or coincidance, it's meta domination...

Finally some words of wisdom by you to restrict in some way the Empire, thanks really!! I really hope that FFG will listen us.

jogo said:

Hi Jogo.

I took a look to the results (as our player showed us, I have to read in depth their reports, yet), and I noticed that great deck (everyone told it was a funny and strong deck) was actually an anti-meta deck, 'cause it lost against DE, if I remember correctly (against whom Empire NEVER loses) and did pretty bad against Orc Rush. 

The mistake has to be proved, but I checked out the FAQ and had something to do with the "sacrifice-additional cost" thing...Any way, I didn't mentioned it because it's an ACTUAL problem...I've just said that to focus on the fact that, as someone couldn't believe it, every version of our empire decks, specifically built for competitive play, went through the finals. 

I guess, as YOU do, we deserve a bit of attention, because if we say something, is because we see it on a regular basis during a long season of tournaments. Someone insulted us tellin' that we were "psycho-pros" or the like.

No pros, nor psycho: just players who love the game and are tired to see a one-deck game (or two-decks game). 

The point of the discussion is not about who's the best: is about what's the best thing to do for the game. And the best thing to do is nerf empire and give an actual chance to Elves. Then, if a single faction is out of the contest, that's fine, it's normal for a card game...

Let's see what happens. :)

Cheers

DB

Hi,

  So is this the RTF Dwarves deck that everyone is discussing? deckbox.org/sets/103130

DB.Cooper said:

That's right. This is time for FFG to stop Empire domination. Maybe only restriction for Derrickburg Forge will work, but I suggest also restriction for Judgement of Verena becouse this card has power to destroy all opponent's suports and units even on turn 1 (Long Winter, Militia, Runefang, 1 resource left). Forge is the best support in the game, gives 1 power and loyality for 1 cost or 1 power and extra card for cost 2. With upcomming Empire quest will be even more powerful. Even mono Dwarf Europe Champion and vice-champion have them in decks. Judgement of Verena force opponent to develop every turn and to have some develop control in deck, influencing all decks and meta like Visit the Haunted City before. In my opinion this card should be playable as ultimate game breaker, but without economy acceleration with Warpstones and Forges. On the other hand, if Forge and Verena will be restricted Whilhem from the Osterkancht could be not, also DE Soul Stealer shouldn't be restricted.

Where do you see empire domination?

I just see overplayed archetype that do result cause it's overplayed, and losing against an old archetype deck, against which he was losing the same way more than 1 year ago. Players are just too influenced by the "10 guys" that speak louder than the others on the web.

The only thing that should be nerfed is always the same thing, the "setup speed", I mean there are too many cards accessible to empire which the purpose is only to speed up the set up. But this is the same for any faction.

Contested village should also be on the RL, this card is almost in every deck with no other purpose than speed up the set up. Those cards look like "lands" in magic. Ressource in WH:I are the "strong point" of the game, any card that "just look like a land" bring a high degree of randomization with no reason.

Those settings cards just bring randomization and most faction does not have the same or equivalents "cards" to set up as fast.

Shindulus said:

Hi. 

The 10 guys are good players and playtesters. And aren't 10. There are lots of people who see what the truth is. 

Derricksburg and Rodrik is often played in other order decks. They're autoincludes as Warpstone Excavation or Contested....

Contested Village in the restricted list means nothing. That's not the problem of the game: is limited and has no effect, at 1 cost. Pretty balanced. 

A competitive Verena deck NEVER lost against Dwarves on a regular basis. 
When someone speak "louder" than others, maybe they CAN. We're discussing with the TOP 16-8 players of the biggest central tournament in the world and with other good players who played there and saw how things go nowadays.

When you play tournaments over an entire year, playtest 3-4 times per week, build a deck and destroy almost any opponent, you HAVE the right to speak loud, if we're speaking about COMPETITIVE play. That's not being rude or something: if we talk about organized play, we talk about meta-game, the state of the playtesting and card design and the actual power of competitive decks.

Empire ITSELF would  be a normal faction (still strong, but normal) without the RIDICOLOUS boost and recursive support-control: you are empire, you control the table with bouncing-moving effects and get strategic advantage. That's the description of the previews. Ban Verena, Ban/restrict Rodrik, restrict derricksburg: they don't fit that description. That's destruction style and insane resources boost.

If they want to control supports, they play burn it down or splash demolition. That's it: that's the point of hard deckbuilding. :)

DB

I considered Forge and Rodrik as "set up" cards which I am talking in my last post. Rodrik's main aim is to create differencial power with your opponent.

Once  more that's not because the 10 players, believed that they are the ones who play the most and the best and...that does not meant they are the only to play a lot. And moreover that does not meant that they are always right. Ok take the right to speak louder if you want, that does not make your arguments more relevant.

There are local playgroup with more potentiels players than the 32 in "european championship".

Their "mistake" has just been demonstrate : "A competitive Verena deck NEVER lost against Dwarves on a regular basis".  During a tournament where at least during Top16 those "never losing against dwarves decks" have taken a 0 4 (at least 4 and maybe 6) against only one archetype. And this archetype was just an "old archetype" totally nerfed by the RL and despite what you are trying to say, it's not a totally anti verana deck he has weapon very efficient against others decks. But I am quite sure that this deck was using forge + village or exca. Am I trying to say that faction that have access to "fast set up cards" have a too great advantage?

How many empire decks there were at the start of the tournament?

If you tell me that there were more than 16 empire deck, those empire deck have just made a result according to their massive presence during the tournament.

The main problem of WH:I is the general use of cards which only aim is to have a fast set up. Any low cost cards that give power can be considered as a such card, ,not a matter of how balanced they are, but how many of those cards are accessible to a given faction. Those cards randomize the game and force players to have similar contruction no matter which deck they are creating. And yes in this way contested village is a problem, no matter if it is limited or not it just bring more randomization. And yes actually empire have many of those cards. This is that point that should be modified (access to forge + rodrik + contested/exca + ... not the power of verana or something else).

The second problem of WH:I is that too many players are believing what others say. It's really easier to complain than looking for solution.

I am not sure that we have such a different opinion we just don't see the source of the problem in the same points.

Hi,

i definitely noticed that we're on the same boat, believe me and I didn't meant to be offensive. Sorry.

Anyway, even if there were 20 empires, 7 of them were our players, the same one who play empire and complain about it, the same guys that did the right thing (imho), with me and other hundreds of players, when asked FFG to ban VTHC.

I do respect the winner, I do respect the average players, I do respect everyone: but from a competitive perspective, I've to focus on the opinions of the players who play everytime and almost everyday and get awesome results during key tournaments.
A good player can hide in a loft in Alaska, I'll never now...But if that player's that good and doesnt' say anything, he or she can't help the game as much as we, active players, do.

So: I trust your opinion and it's just the same as mine...And I'm pretty sure Verena itself is not the core problem...But it's still a problem. You HAVE to develop, I DON't. One less card to play means one more card you have to draw and if I undermine your draw-engine, you lose. That's a basic concept of the game.

Then, Empire decks right now are most "turbo-rodrick resource control" decks. Play rodrik, replay it, play skinks, replay it, save your guy, play some other rodrik and so on...Than Frederich and the emperor come out and the game ends in 2 turns. That's how it goes.

Verena is an added power in a powerful faction. You develop 1 per turn. Turn 2, I can go Verena + Long Winter and even destroy you 3 cards. Game over.

Single cards aren't a problem. Even Rodrik wouldn't have been a problem without all the bouncing effects.

But that's the point: I think each faction should relate on its basic synergis and its "inner" strategy (every single FFG faction has both, in any card game).

Just to be precise:

EMPIRE: tactical advantage with move effects; board advantage with damage redirection, power control and bouncing effects. Drawbacks should be clear: small units, lack of support removal.

DWARVES: big capital difficult to burn out; reanimation effects and combos as a secondary way. Drawback is slow setup.

HIGH ELVES: indirect damage/spell focus with a lot of control.

ORCS: rush as the main way, control as a hidden soul.

CHAOS: units control, direct damaging effects.

DARK ELVES: hp/hand control; mill.

If FFG focuses on THIS scheme, at the end of a cycle and with one more deluxe we'll have a balanced game...But they've to stop to give EVERYTHING to empire, re-fill Orcs with resounding rushing and damaging effects (when Caos is so strong) and printing useless units and tactics for Elves. :)

The problem with empire itself, in the end, is the fact that THOSE boost aren't neutral, but imperial: no loyalty issues. You can easily start with 3 cards in play.

Turn 2 you get 5 resources and draw 2. Play rodrick 2 times and it's game over. That's absurd. :)

DB

DB.Cooper said:

I was talking about that on my national forum, the threat brought by some cards is as efficient that the fact of playing those cards. Because to counter the threat you must play in a particular way, in the case of Verana this can lead to "lose" a card almost for nothing every turn. Talking about some cards during the game or at the beginning of the game can be as efficient as effectively playing those cards.

Depending of the level threat and what does it cost you to play according to the threat you "must" or "not" do it.

But I really think that for more and more decks this Verana's threat is less and less effective. And the more the game will get new cards, the more this threat will be less effective.

DB.Cooper said:

The two bold quote are for me quite the same "fast set up" compared to your opponent.

Rodrik is a card that I mainly considered to be a "fast set up card", and more over you can do some strong strategy just around this card.

But yes finally we have the same opinion that's not fun ;).