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You basically broke down my rant of the "double-dip" I've talked about somewhere else in this forum. Basically the problem is that if you want to represent firing multiple shots in an abstract game there's two ways of going about it. You could either A)make it easier to hit the target because they're firing more bullets or B)make it so more shots hit the target, depending on how well you hit. The "Concentrated Fire" that you listed is basically how Deathwatch operates now, while the Burst Fire is how Black Crusade handles it (it went for option B). Wild Fire is just another means to an end but I think the designers went with the way Black Crusade handles it because only increasing the ability to hit makes the Devastator on par with a Marine with really good BS since they're both only hitting with one bullet. I think if you went that route you'd basically have to beef up these heavier weapons to make that one shot count and I think many would advocate against making things like the Heavy Bolter stronger than it is.
EDIT: Take a shot for each time I say "basically"
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WittyDroog said:
A Defiler can still do things like All out Attack if I recall, which is a great advantage because it's a freaking tank who cares if it can't dodge. I've never had a Defiler show up in game (mostly due to how laughable it is on the Tabletop, my players can't take one seriously), but really the issue isn't the number of attacks that make it deadly but the huge claw it has crumpling everything.
No, because the multiple attacks can burn through reactions while AOA does not.
I don't think that autofire is an issue in DW at all. It is in other WH40K lines, but in DW post-errata the only FA weapons that players can get normally are the HB and assault cannon. It doesn't have the autogun vs. lasgun issues of the other lines. So there is no point in this rule change. It damages NPCs; it does not address a game-play balance issue.
BTW my math was wrong -- my ork's chance to hit whould be even lower, since it can't aim with its gun.
I've misplaced my Black Crusade book for the moment. But would there be any issues with changing the Unnatural Strength and Toughness Traits to use the +x mechanic of BX instead of the multiplier of DH/RT/DW?
As the GM I won't have much trouble translating the Unnatural Characteristic multiplier on the fly from x2 to +3, +4 or +5 depending on the base creature.
It's more a question of wether or not it's a big deal for a BattleBrother with Toughness 25 to have TB 6 instead of TB 4, or a Battle-Brother with Strength 62 to have SB 10 instead of SB 12…
-K
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Well the main issue will be determining if the Unnatural Characteristics give a bonus to a Test or not, because they don't in BC, and if so what it should be,
Unnatural Characteristics do not seem to grant a bonus to tests themselves in DW, but rather provide bonus Degrees of Success. On reviewing my BX and DW books, I see this pretty much amounts to the same thing with regards to the Battle-Brothers:
* DW grants a number of extra Degrees of Success equal to the multiplier, e.g. +2 for an Unnatural Characteristic (x2)
* BX grants a number of extra Degrees of Success equal to half the bonus, e.g. +2 for an Unnatural Characteristic (+4)
I figure the BX mechanic is more… level.
-K
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kjakan said:
Unnatural Characteristics do not seem to grant a bonus to tests themselves in DW, but rather provide bonus Degrees of Success.
Hmmm. They do in DH. I must review.
They don't provide a bonus in any system, per se. Rather, they used to negate one step of negative modifers on a test. So a -30 became -20. They also served as a stalemate breaker, similar to the way size does. That is if I'm remembering it correctly of course.
Naviward said:
As everyone else has said, the errata's weapon stats and righteous fury rules really work well (there is a reason these stats are now used in Black Crusade and Only War).
Using the shooting rules from Black Crusade and Only War is more personal preference (as comments here shows). I use them in my game, but there are arguments either way so I'd recommend only looking at them if you are also buying Black Crusade or Only War anyway.
Personally I'd go even further with Librarians and simply not allow them in the game. A Librarian with Smite and Compel and even just the damage a force weapon can put out quickly overpowers the other characters and makes most combats uninteresting. If you don't want to have to plan every fight carefully to neuter the Librarian, I'd just leave them out of the game.
I don't think disallowing Librarians isn't answer, I just give them a nerf. You are right that Librarians are overpowered but the main reason they are is that they can push all day with powers and if they have the right talents they don't get to many downsides to doing so. How I run Librarians is I take out Favored of the Warp and Sanctioned and each time they push they have to 1d5-1 corruption if they roll even or 1d5-1 insanity if they roll odd. They should be allowed to push but if they do they have to accept the consequences. Remember every 10 points of insanity is a test.
Space Marine-Viking-Wizard. Your argument is invalid.
DJSunhammer said:
They don't provide a bonus in any system, per se. Rather, they used to negate one step of negative modifers on a test. So a -30 became -20. They also served as a stalemate breaker, similar to the way size does. That is if I'm remembering it correctly of course.
They reduced the level of difficulty by 1 per Unnatural step, which in most cases is the same as providing a +10 bonus.
kjakan said:
Unnatural Characteristics do not seem to grant a bonus to tests themselves in DW, but rather provide bonus Degrees of Success.
I just looked it up. Indeed they do give a bonus (rather, reduce the difficulty).
Ergo, all Eldar get a +10 to Dodge, for instance.
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