ak-73 said:

Thanks for the concern Alex, its all in the spirit of good gaming.  :)

I'm inclined to believe running off alone in the middle of an assault from enemy hordes seems to exceed the boundaries of personal glory hounding. 

I believe that all Space Wolves albeit glory seekers, do believe in working as a pack (hence the squad ability for pack tactics).  They may try to outdo each other for bragging rights or leave their own saga or story.  But recklessly glory hounding is unbecoming of a squad leader, let alone a space marine.  Nor is it the path to longeivity as the Apothecary in the Ultramarines movie put it rightly.

I do not speculate what his reasons or motivation may be, be it a demeanour or otherwise.  But the action seems to contradict pg 202 of rites of battle as you pointed out.

My course of action: gather information on the squad leader using my armour's black box/ log.  My character will have a chat to him about his actions and the repercussions on the team. 

If he persists in his behaviour; as the librarian attached to the KT, I will submit a report to the watch captain after the mission.  It will not be a nitpick but a balanced assessment of the leader's ability to lead.

I do not think that information gathering will even be necessary. What Space Marine would lie about his actions to his Watch Captain? That would be grounds for very severe punishment; it would be like digging deeper into a hole. And he'd be disgraced in the eyes of his brothers too. (= more renown penalties)

Alex

ak-73 said:

Agreed. Stop the conniving gossip campaign. With Space Marines just be up front all the way. If you can't stand up to him - or if it's not worthy of a confrontation in the first place - then shut up and be a part of the team. It's not like he's fixed into a leader position - if another mission looks like it might need a cool-headed approach (and not all Deathwatch missions do), select an appropriate leader.

HappyDaze said:

Which is why I plan for my character to have a chat with the squad leader first.  No use reporting a dispute that can be addressed with simple face to face discussion.

My character's aim is to get the squad leader to stop running off on his own and get the whole kill team united.  Glory seeking at the expense of the mission and the safety of the kill team is not acceptable behaviour for a supposite knight errant.  If he can is aware of his actions, then its well and good.

Otherwise, a report will be filed with the watch captain after the mission regarding his behaviour.  As I mentioned its not about nitpick, petty argument or conniving gossip/smear campaign.  Its because my character does care enough for the members of the kill team.  And its also for the squad leader's own good.  Before he gets himself killed in the process too.

Think about it, our characters are so far away from our individual chapters.  The last thing we need is to die due to reckless glory seeking by an inidividual.  Its our first kill mission together thus everyone is kinda edgy.

Last thing at the end of my character's mind is to sow discord or mistrust.  Its all for the sake of getting the job done and returning back to Erioch with everyone intact.

 Recklessness doesn't really seem in character for an iron priest, they are generally more brains over brawn (unless its a personal demenor thing).

That said I don't think that Space Wolves give a damn about the codex.

As Bolt of Change correctly thought, Space Wolves do not adhere to the Codex Astartes the way Ultramarines et al., do. So arguing with him (especially as an experienced RP) on this grounds will not be the way to chastise him effectively (and he'd be in the right to start snarling back at you if you came up to him with this).

Keep it to a localized, group (pack) level, and try to come off as non-confrontational as you can (within demanor and IC personalities reasons).

Buliwyf Hagnarsson said:

Agreed that the Space Wolves do not concern themselves with adherence to the Codex Astartes.  What I do imagine is that they do have a copy of that somewhere as it also contains a list of tactics which SW commanders may decide to use.

Relations wise, our characters are swinging towards a confrontation.  We had traded a few harsh statements on tactics.  My character tries to keep matters objective.

A pack would likely better achieve a hunt together than split.  Casualties would be lesser and it would allow the pack to be more effective.  This is especially important as the pack members are injured.  Running off in the middle of a hunt would likely hinder the pack efforts as its focus is split, likelihood of time and effort to hunt a prey would be greater.  The Alpha wolf would lead the hunt and not suddenly take off.

Apart from the codex, his behaviour is still not logical.  As Bolt has mentioned, an iron priest would be more cunning and cerebral.

Deepstriker said:

This reminds me of a clan in a world with Myths about Five Circles. The clan of Big Cats have a book that their Emprah told them they had to have, so they put it in a place of honor, is the only copy that exists within their domain, and no one reads from it, reading instead from their own book.

That said, I agree with you that such a specific action is more remeniscent of a stripling in the Space Wolves and not an Iron Priest. Only a Wolf Priest and a Wolf Scout is as cool-headed.

Certainly, bring it up. Just realize that, while it may be in character, anytime your character starts quoting the Codex, the Space Wolf is going to either laugh or start frothing. :)

If it comes to blows, it comes to blows and should be handled the way honorable Battle-Brothers do - just avoid the challenge to be to death. Or, be unconventional in your own when it comes to that.

Buliwyf Hagnarsson said:

Its pointless to duel to the death in the middle of a mission if it would not benefit in any way the objectives we were given.  If push comes to shove and a duel is the way to assuage his honour, I would simply state the mission comes from the ordo Xenos, which is almost tantamount to being issued from the Emprah himself. 

That takes presedence over individual ego trips.  The lives of millions of emprah loyalists hang in the balance.  I'll try to exercise some measure of respect but I certainly won't back down from a duel if challenged.

If he wants to act like a pup, he shall be accorded the respect shown of one.

Bolt of Change said:

In this case, that's the wrong attitude for the Wolf to have. If he's in charge of a bunch of guys who DO give a damn about the Codex, then he needs to learn that, understand that, and work with that.

Otherwise, he's not suited to lead them.

cf: If I were a proponent of a specific religion, but all my staff were rigid and pious followers of another religion, would I be a good manager if I vocally never gave a damn about their religion, bad-mouthed it, and never bothered to learn about their culture's way of doing things? No: I'd be an arrogant moron, unfit to lead them.

Siranui said:

And in DW terms, that means you'd not be likely to be elected leader every again.  Some people don't like the fact that the leader in DW is elected, and doensn't have absolute authority, but IMO it works- primarily because this is an RPG and events like the one described in this forum happen all the time in RPGs, and it provides for a very clean solution to the problem.

But that's not how 40K works. The Space Wolves are a proud chapter and have their own traditions and I don't think they are thinking all that highly of the Codex. The have an oral tradition and don't understand the written tradition. I suppose in the eyes of most Sw the other brother should just man up and have an ale.

Which explains why the Wolves don't rise to leadership positions in the Deathwatch usually.

Alex

ak-73 said:

We don't actually know that.

That doesn't actually matter, anyway. To a similar degree, you've got Ultramarines being placed in situations where they're required to lead those who don't adhere to the Codex as strictly or completely as they do. In pretty much every case, you've got a situation where the leader is faced with leading those whose traditions and ideals don't match their own to some degree or another, and a parallel situation where the members of the Kill-Team are following a warrior who has been chosen as their leader in spite of differences in beliefs and ideology.

That's kind of the point.

A Deathwatch Marine is expected to suck it up and get on with the mission - you'll be forced to deal with Marines from other Chapters almost constantly during your Vigil, so get over it. If you don't play well with others, volunteer for Kill-Marine duties. If you don't work well with those of another Chapter, then you either learn how to do it, or you end your Vigil and go home. I don't imagine that the Deathwatch has the time or resources to spare on dealing with those who will just waste its time. The Deathwatch doesn't need another Astartes with a bolter and a blade to dive into the jaws of hell without a second thought, because those can be found in every Chapter. It needs those who can adapt and learn and operate on their own initiative.

Those who rise to long-term positions within the Deathwatch (Keepers and Watch Captains, for example), regardless of their original Chapter, should always be those who have effectively adapted to the multi-cultural environment of the Deathwatch. A Watch Captain from the Space Wolves will have to deal with those who adhere to the Codex, so it's in his best interest to learn at least some of Robert Girlyman's Big Book of Military Strategy, just as an Ultramarines Watch Captain has to deal with the likes of the Space Wolves and Black Templars who ignore the Codex. In all cases, you end up with a warrior who's probably quite well-versed in a range of strategies and tactics foreign to his Chapter, having learned a lot of unusual and unorthodox strategies whilst on their Vigil.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Agreed, I overstated this point but we actually do know that they tend to not rise beyond Captain: page 47.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Let's put it this way: the DW needs those who are capable of both.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I don't think that Space Wolves captain tend to learn about the Codex by any other way except due to mission experience and occasional argument with codex-adherent chapter members. To me, the Space Wolves are instinct-driven and their uncanny instinct makes them intuitively adapt to the situation, including working with Codex marines and their procedures. What those need to pick up through study, the SW grasp intuitively, empirically.

There's of course no rule without exception and a book reading Space Wolf surely would be fun.

Alex

I certainly agree that the idea of an elected leader works perfectly within the scope of the game. Players actively ordering others around is boorish, and elective leadership reins that in.

ak-73 said:

It's how the Deathwatch works, though. Astartes are screened and selected because they have that certain something that makes them suitable. Part of that is going to be the ability to compromise. The Ultra is going to have to work outside the Codex, and the Wolf within it; the Templar will have to tolerate the Psyker, et al.