RJM said:

Good point. The Purloined Horn... hiding in plain site.

RJM said:

RJM said:

Good point. The Purloined Horn... hiding in plain site.

 The horn that Sam has. Myself, since the moment it was introduced, I figured it was the real Horn of Winter.

As for the Horn of Dragons, I kept waiting for the point in the story where the dragons responded to the horn when Cragorn blew it back at Naga's Ribs and the Kingsmoot. If this horn has magical properties, well, apparently some limited range is involved.

While we're on the topic of bizarre theories, who says that there can only be one Azor Ahai? Jon currently fits the bill (provided he is resurrected), Dany fits the bill, Stannis...sorta...fits the bill.

But I do think Stag has the right of it. Mel will bring back Jon, because he truly does have too much story left to him. The big question is how does she keep him safe, after we know that the brothers of the Watch have turned on him. And for a truly stupid reason. Jon is preparing the wall for when the Others come. Yet the old members can only see the wildlings as a threat, not as an ally. Perhaps they see them as the only threat, that the wights are easily dealt with, and that the Others are no more than a myth. Whatever the real reason, whatever the provocation, there are members of the Watch who would likely just kill Jon again, based on their actions in his last chapter.

And there you have your answer why the Others couldn't be a bigger threat in this book. If hey had assaulted the Wall, the brothers of the Night's Watch would have stood together. (Much like the strategy the Shadows used in Bab 5 all these years ago would always cause the peoples to unite, not fight... But I disgress.)

To tell the story of the far-seeing leader being brought down by his short-sighted followers (doesn't that sound familiar from our daily politics?), the Others had to stay an uncertain, distant threat. It's different for us, the readers, because the Others were introduced in the very first chapter of the very first book, even before all the Stark children. So we know they are one of the main threats. But for most of the story (especially for all chapters that don't deal with the NIght's Watch) the Others don't play a role. If they where out in the open, all this beautiful backstabbing, being mean and being human wouldn't occur. And I think it's one of the powerful motives of Martins Song that he has all this, even though there is a very fantastic Dark Danger (TM) lurking beyond the Wall.

I think Jon being resurrected by Mel won't result in a zombie-fication and here's why.  In the prologue we received a crash course in warg-ness.  Warg dies and get's his being/soul/essence/whatever sucked into his man companion.  In Jon's case, Ghost.  Mel resurrects Jon, normally causes them to call all wonky, but wait!  There's something different this time, Beric et al. weren't wargs, so perhaps the reanimation process is what screws with the psyche and if Jon is "in" Ghost then when his body is reanimated his psyche avoids that trauma, so when he "remembers who he is"  (that reoccurring theme that was nicely illustrated earlier) he can go back in his body and he's right as rain but for some scars and the fact that the Watch kinda hates him.  But as we pointed out his Watch had ended with his death so he's free to go about his business.  On a side note, at least we now know the plot reason why Ghost was locked up, because if he wasn't Jon might still be dead, but there would be Night Watch pieces everywhere.

There may still be Night's Watch pieces everywhere. I bet Wun Wun isn't done yet. Lol

I, for one, would love to see some more uppance come at the hands (?) of Wun Wun and Ghost.

 I'm particularly curious to see who is chosen as the new Lord Commander.  I hadn't seen the "death" coming (even if 998th seemed like an ominous numbering), and I do appreciate the notion that his "watch has ended."  I guess the legal ramifications of having been presumed dead are more than I'm ready to contemplate at this late hour.

The flip side of that coin is what is going to happen to Bowen Marsh and the other conspirators when Stannis returns to the wall. If he doesn't kill them outright, they'll likely make up the vanguard in the fight against the Others.

Maester_LUke said:

So you think the 999th commander of the nightwatch will be Ser Alliser Thorne. Than he will obviously do some folly start a quarrel with the wildlings that already passed the wall. In that quarrel a lot of wildlings and nightwatch folk will die and become white walkers (south of the wall). Jon will be ressurected in some way or another and would become the 1000th commander of the nightwatch to unite the powers of the nightwatch and the wildings to fight against the common foe.

Besides that i really like the idea that his watch ends with his death and he´s free for some other service . But what should he do than? I mean will the northern lords accept a ressurected bastard of the North introduced by Melisandre and his grace King Stannis ? 

I also think Azor Ahai mustn´t  necessarily fulfill the oracle/ story of being born under special circumstances etc. Maybe he/she is just a leader, a player in the game of thrones.... maybe Melisandre misread the flames. I would like to see some person become Azor Ahai besides the obvious choices maybe Victarion Greyjoy, Bran Stark  (...). 

JerusalemJones said:

Agreed, if the prophecy can be misread as the "Prince that was Promised" instead of the "Princess that was Promised" couldn't it just as easily be the "Princes that were Promised"

 If Mel does give Jon the red kiss, I do not see any threat of 'zobiefication', or 'turning evil' as others have mentioned.  Beric was resurrected several times without any seeming change to his personality or wits.  Cat was different - but, we were provided with a reason for that - she had been dead for several days when they found her & brought her back.  Mel should be able to get to Jon fairly quickly.  Add in the Warg factor, and there's no 'off' time for Jon's brain/personality - I don't see that as a problem.  The bigger question would be - how does that play out?  With Beric it was always as if his wounds weren't as bad as thought - with Jon, that would still make him Lord Commander, unless Mel hides him.  

I can't wait to see how everything plays out with around the Wall after Jon's stabbing. Wun Wun rampaging, the Watch leaderless, the Wildling army berzerk to go get Mance.

Pure chaos and plenty o' killing.

Old Ben said:

I don't think I suggested Thorne anywhere in my comment, in fact I doubt who's got the combined popularity, let alone who's going to take charge of organizing the elections without Stannis around to provide from structure. Although a thousand years from now, this will make a great story to add to the Night King and all the other legends.

I don't really think there's a parallel in the reaction to a "red-kissed" Jon. As you say, Jason, there's a big difference between being stabbed to death in front of a room of people and taking a "mortal wound" in battle. (Could Beric have returned from a beheading? Perhaps we should ask the Kurgan... I mean Gregor). I'm really not prepared to speculate on the mechanism of the Red Kiss, or even if Mel and Thoros are truly using the same source of power. If they let her get to him swiftly, before his body is cold, perhaps they could play it off as "not so serious." (But freakish, like Connor MacLeod after his first battle) Anything longer than that, I think they'll see it as blackest sorcery, and Jon will be more widely reviled in the manner of Ser Aliser Thorne.

I did have the weird thought on my drive home from GenCon. What if, in an attempt to subvert the normal convention and the audience' expectations, Jon never makes it out of Ghost. There is a living child of Eddard Stark who lost her Direwolf before she ever connected with it like the others. She seems to have actual thoughts of concern about him (admittedly, because she thinks her three "true" brothers are dead), perhaps they have a "team up" in an entirely unexpected fashion and manage to keep Jon present in Wolf for the long term.
 

Maester_LUke said:

Ser Alliser Thorne was of course my free interpretation. I think it could also make sense since he´s been one of Jon´s strongest opposers in the nightwatch. I would also bet that he had his hands in this revolt against Jon.