If the horn was blown and the Others invaded, what guarantees would there be that at the end, if the Others lose, that they would be completely exterminated. There might be a need (real or perceived) to rebuild the Wall, and protect the kingdoms of Westeros again. I firmly believe that if the Night's Watch exists in any form at the end of the books, and Jon is still alive, Jon will remain with the Watch.

As for the Horn of Winter, I don't believe that the horn Mance has IS the horn. I still think that the drinking horn that Samwell has (the one stashed with the dragonglass that Jon and Ghost found) is either the real Horn of Winter, or else part of the real horn. There has to be some sort of significance to that horn, or else wy would it have been stashed with the one weapon known to hurt Others.

Wow, you are great, people. I just finished the fourth book and am very glad to see this discussion here.

Plus, I had never thought of Jon being Raeghar's son with Lyanna. I kinda liked the idea that Ned had a flaw in his honor. But now I just can't see things differently. Anyway, I guess there is a clue about a way to get to the knowledge about who is Jon's mother (and father). There was an outlaw who talked with Arya saying that him and Jon were milk brothers... So Jon's mil mother could know something. There is also that matter of the lady that loved Eddard and apparently killed herself from grief. I don't know what is means, but maybe some hidden interest made it looked like she killed herself just to ensure some truth didn't leak...

Regarding Dani's two husbands, hasn't anyone thought about Victarion Greyjoy? He is brutal, but loyal enough. On an afterthought, I don't think he would agree to beign ruled by a woman... at least not if his personality don't change. And it could, from love, maybe.

But Dani's two husbands could be a metaphor. Maybe they don't need to be her husbands at all, just two special men who help her claim the throne. The dragon has three heads, and that could mean something different from "onde head with two husbands". :o] So, maybe Jon could be one of the heads, even if he doesn't claim anything for himself, neither joins Dani in marriage.

But, coming back to the title of this discussion, one obligatory topic to me would be: "does people brought back from the dead serve the Light Lord or The Other One?", and that could lead also to a discussion about the validity of religion. If one religion claims that they have the "real" god, but there are "miracles" happening from every religion, does it mean that everything is magic, and no god has any reality? But the Old Gods from before the First Men do seem to mean something real in the world...

Anyway, back to the obligatory topic I am suggesting, Catelyn new mood really, really give me chills. Maybe them who are brought from the dead do not serve one side or the other, but carries their own personality. And it did seems that Cat had gone mad just before she died...

You know, have any of us ever considered that the Dragon's Three Heads might be Dany and a guy and another woman? I think we discount it just because there are no obvious  women to fill the role, but there is really nothing to prevent that from being the case.

Well, maybe we are so much looking for 2 husbands because that was how the idea of the dragon needing 3 heads came up in the books: Ser Jorah Mormont telling Daenerys about how Aegon had two wives, his two sisters. So she should have two husbands.

That's a nice logic, and we could take that for granted, as Daenerys had... But G. R. R. Martin is a master at hiding plots in plain sight, as he is in making we know of things that some characters don't, and then describing them from the point of view of the character as they were just like that.

I really, really love how he brings things up.

More thoughts on the subject.

This idea of "what serves what", "which direction those actions are aimed" is being a constant thought in my head after the fourth book. I haven't read the sample chapters of the fiftfh (aside from Daenery's).

"Who is Coldhands?", for instance, doesn't strike me as much as which purpose is he serving. He did help Sam escape the wights, but that could have been just a necessity. He did not kill any wight that I remember.

It seems that he is an envoy of some power in the north. It could mean someone who represents and old power on the world, rather than someone that represents an "evil" or "wight sided" one. But, regarding those ideas about the visions of the three-eyed crow being an affirmation of Bran's powers, I don't think so... It seems to me that the cranogman seer (I don't recall his name right now!) too has been given some indication that Bran needed to go north of the wall. So, if there is some power on the Wall that prevents some magical connections to pass through it, maybe it was the strenght of this misterious power in the north that bypassed it.

You know, I'm kinda guessing if we are going to hear anything about Bran in the fifth book. It wouldn't surprise me if Martin just decides to hold that part to show it later... And if Bran comes controling the last and most powerful horde of wights and the Others? Uh... that sure gives me chills... Or he could appear in the end, saving the day.

hum... *biting my nails*

Pedro Lunaris said:

I don't think it was ever said that there was a power built into the Wall that stopped ALL magical connections from passing through. Far from it, in fact, since Bran was able to see through a heart tree and talk to Jon. You could even make the argument that the 6 direwolf pups and their bonds to the Stark kids are likely a product of northern magic, come south of the Wall. Rather, it statement was that the spells woven into the Wall stopped the magic of the Others from passing through. That can obviously be bypassed by ignorance wince the Wights the Watch brought back through the Wall were able to animate when the sun went down.

I'm sure that the Three-Eyed Crow is a person, not a personification. I personally think it is some agent of the Children of the Forest. And I think Coldhands is some sort of amalgam of the Other's wight-making magic and the Children's influence. He seems to be a wight that kept his human mind. I think that mind is because the Children helped him.

Pedro Lunaris said:

I doubt he is going to be coming on the side of the wights and the Others. The Three-Eyed Crow seems very much in opposition to those powers ("Now you see why you must live"). Plus, as long as he is living, he is an enemy of the Others.

I will point out that if Bran's skinchanging abilities continue in the direction they seem to be going, I wouldn't be surprised to see him "riding" a dragon.

We do know that when Jon goes south of the Wall in Storm of Swords, he loses contact with Ghost, so the Wall does affect other forms of Magic, or at least the weaker forms, as Jon and Ghost do not share the same link that Bran does.

JerusalemJones said:

Hmm. I haven't read that for awhile, so I don't remember exactly, but I don't remember Jon having a "sense" or "connection" with Ghost the way that Bran does with Summer - beyond the usual heightened empathy and control that all of the kids have. His wolf dreams were infrequent at best. The Wall's separation of the two of them seemed completely physical to me. In fact, other than the one time in the mountain pass (when Bran kind of pushed him into Ghost), I don't remember Jon having "wolf dreams." I remember him thinking "some skinchanger I am; I can't do it again." So I'm not sure there was anything there for the Wall to block.

But like I said, just because I don't remember a reference to a lost "magical" connection with Ghost, or even an emotional one at that, doesn't mean it wasn't there.

ktom said:

I don't remeber the exact quote, but to me it was plain that Jon felt strangely regarding his connection with Ghost when he went south of the Wall. I agree with you, ktom, that his connection was never as strong as the others. At least he had far fewer wolf dreamsthan the others - except from Robb, we didn't get any mention I recall about Robb having dreams (maybe it's also an age thing, a sensitivuty that they start to lose with age if not trained). And Sansa, I guess... Anyway, Jon always had few wolf dreams, but I remember that, when he went south of the Wall, he thought he maybe had lost Ghost, and one thing that came to his mind was not having wolf dreams.

This was all brought up by Jon's sample chapter (which I didn't read), when Ghost "says" that he has lost the connection with one of his brothers. The discussion was which brother was that one. The theory about being Summer brought the Wall's hypothesis. But the fact that wights were animated south of the Wall is an argument that could go against that... But... and if just the corpses were brought, and then re-animated by someone who had climbed the Wall that very night? Then probably there could be other forces besides the Others to animate Wights, or the Wall wouldn't be able to stop Wights...

It's just a thought, really.

Pedro Lunaris said:

Haven't read it either, but I'd assume the brother that was lost is Grey Wind, seeing as how he is dead. Summer/Bran have had similar thoughts and the lost brother (to go along with the lost sister) referred to the dead.

Pedro Lunaris said:

Well, I think you're making things needlessly complicated with that. The wights brought back through the Wall "came alive" at night. Remember that the Wildlings were always far less afraid of wights in the daytime. It was almost assuredly nighttime that reanimated them, not some un-named, un-seen, un-hinted third party that climbed the Wall near Castle Black the same day the Rangers brought back the bodies. I think we're getting real close to a "keep it simple" situation with that one. What is the most likely explanation there, really?

Personal opinion: The Wall is not a barrier against magic. It is a magical barrier against the Others and their ilk. Coldhands could not cross the Wall (said explicitly in SoS, BTW) because he has been touched/tainted by them in some way. Jon's separation from Ghost when he left him North of the Wall had less to do with having the Wall between them and more to do with the conscious decision to separate from his protector.

I disagree about Jon/Ghost. Jon is constantly agonizing about being separated from ghost, and hopes he does well. And he mentions to Ygritte (I believe) that sine they climbed the wall he has had no sense of Ghost. But at the end of SoS when Jon goes to the north side of the wall he starts to "sense" Ghost again, in the same way Bran senses Summer. It may have been immediately after the dream where Bran talks to Jon in his dream through the heart tree that Jon "sees" the wildlings at the Milkwater through Ghost's eyes, but that may have been part of Bran awakening Jon to his ability.

I do agree that the wall was primarliy made to keep the Others out of Westeros, but I also believe that there are other powers at work that can prevent certain low-level magics from working as well.

ktom said:

ktom said:

Well, you are completely right, I'm making things more complicated than they need to be. I don't think Martin will go through the simpler path as a rule, though... So I'm just having fun imagining things... :]

To me the Wall has some blocking powers alright, and we are yet to see which type they are. As from Coldhands... yes, the hypotesis that he is touched by the wights somehow strikes me as being a very likely one. And what could that be?

I don't stop thinking about how many people are coming back from the dead, and what that's supposed to mean. And I think there is a good possibility that Coldhands is Benjen Stark.

Pedro Lunaris said:

That is certainly one of the prevailing theories. A black brother, killed by the Others and turned into a wight (as we know Benjen's men were), but somehow retaining his autonomy and mind, probably through an outside force - perhaps made possible because he had the blood of the First Men?

Remember when Bran, upon hearing Benjen was lost north of the Wall, said with uncanny certainty, "yes, the Children will help him"? 

ktom said:

yes, that is a great reminder.

I don't think it's exaclty the blood of the First Men that could have made Coldhands retain his memory even if he was turned into a wight. many a person has a strong blood connection with the First Men in the north, specially beyound the Wall. but surely Benjen has a significance that could have made him being safed. the Children of the Forest could have actively helped, or maybe the old powers they are attuned with. the Stark kids were granted direwolfs, one each, to have a special bond with. maybe those old powers are helping those that represent the things the old powers stand for...

my problem with the jon is Raegars son theory is a genetics argument, if we found out Joffery was not roberts true son because he did not have the Baratheon Dark hair which was a dominant feature, then why wouldn't jon snow have the silver hair of the Targ line, this trait I'm assuming is also dominant because the dark hair of the martell line didn't seem to corrupt the silverness of targ hair at all, just speculation here though