So, should we just start the inevitable "Who are Jon Snow's Parents" and "Who Should Be Cast As..." threads now? Or how about the "When is Dance REALLY Going to Come Out?"

What other topics always seem to come up when discussing the books?

I like the when is dance really coming out topic. :-)

One of teh other most popular toipics is "Who is Coldhands?" and a discussion about "Bran´s green dreams".

Can I mention that they kill Eddard here? Or that Jaime loses his hand? Those count as spoilers.

Besides, we all know that Jon is the son of Eddard and Lyanna, right? Incest isn't limited to Targ and Lannister.

Sooo Dany and Tyrion - future partners / lovers / rulers ? :)

Oh yeah! "Who are the three heads of the dragon?" That's another topic.

Some people seem to push for Dany and Jon, too.

Biggest shocker in dance: Tyrion gets eaten by a dragon. :) (oooh I'd be SOOO mad)

vermillian said:

Well, he is pretty close in size to a child...

Dance Speculations? How is Dany going to react to Quentyn Martell when he shows up (with the Golden Company in tow, perhaps)?

Martin has the first Jon Snow chapter up on his website. How about the last thing Melissandre' says to him?

Hopefully we will learn who Ossifer Plum is. I'm assuming Brown Ben will tell us, and we'll learn how a dead man had a child.

And, the real reason this book is so late is because as soon as we read the first Bran chapter we will either know who COldhands is, or knock another name off the list of possible candidates.

What do you mean? About the enemies or Ygritte's line?

I think Melissandre is realizing that she is mistaken in Stannis and that she's either going to convince Jon that he's Azorr Ahai or that she's going to shag his brains out, or a bit of both.

Concerning Dany, I thought that she was going to hook up with Jon, as both are heirs to the Targaryen line, but that's a lot of speculation of course, and maybe she'll include Martell in her marriage too.

Jotun3Ships said:

Strictly speaking, if Jon is Rhaegar's son and there is no question of legitimacy (either because Rhaegar had two wives like Aegon the Conqueror or through some patent of legitimization), then Jon is the heir to the Targaryen line, not Dany. If there is a question of legitimacy, then Dany is the only heir.

Well, no, because Jon would be Rhaegar's bastard with Lyanna and not true-born, so it would be Dany in either case.

And apart from Melissandre reading it in the flames there's not many other options to "legitimize" the claim. I don't think anyone South of the Neck is going to listen to a warty Crannogman.

Jotun3Ships said:

Hence the comments about legitimacy. The crown can legitimize bastards through proclamation or decree. Consider the letter King Robb wrote legitimizing Jon as the son of Eddard Stark. Such a document, or a record of a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna (the comment about Aegon the Conquerer was to remind people that two wives for a Targaryen is not unheard of), could exist. That would make Jon true-born and heir in place of Dany.

Depending on the wording of the deathbed decree, there is also the fun legal possibility that the 100+ year-old proclamation legitimizing the Targaryen bastards (that ultimately led to the Blackfyre Rebellion) legitimized ALL Targaryen bastards. A 100-year-old legal precedent, with or without the word of some "warty Crannogman," may be more than enough for anyone south of the Neck that prefers a "Targaryen" king who has lived in Westeros all his life to a Targaryen queen who has never set foot on the continent.

One flaw to Jon as heir: he's Taken the Black, and thus renounced all claims to lands and titles. Sure, that could always be put aside, especially if there is no more need for the Watch after all is said and done. But as things currently stand, he has no claim to the throne.

As for the Melisandre' line, I was refering to "You know nothing, Jon Snow." It literally sent chills through me, and had a wtf moment. That did more for me as a teaser than any of the other sample chapters, even though I have enjoyed them all.

On a completely unrelated note, just before Christmas I stopped by an independent bokseller near where I work, and picked up a copy of Martin's Nightflyers. The store owner asked if I had read Ice and Fire, and we got into a short discussion, because he had other customers to help. He thinks the main reason tha Dance isn't available yet is because Martin is in some dispute with the publishers. Between the 1st place debut of Feast on the NY Times bestseller list and the upcoming HBO series, he figures George is trying to get his fair share of the take from the next few books. DwD is bound to be another major bestseller, and he's sure Martin wants to make sure he is getting what his efforts are worth. Strangely enough, it makes some sense to me. But like any theory related to the books, can it be believed?

JerusalemJones said:

~ Yeah, that particular aspect has mattered so much to the people that want something from Jon thus far. It was a non-issue to Robb. It was a non-issue to Stannis. I think it'd be a non-issue to anyone trying to put Jon on the throne as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen. 

The important part about all that, of course, is that it is NOT a non-issue to Jon. And I have maintained all along that in the end, it'll be nurture over nature for Jon. Regardless of who his biological father may have been, in his heart he is the son of Eddard and a Stark. And the 998th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

JerusalemJones said:

Biggest hole in that theory is that the book is already contracted for. "Because I want more money" is not necessarily a good enough reason to renegotiate a contract and a price you have already settled on, particularly if you continually miss deadlines (remember how he was saying he thought it might be done and to the publisher by late summer?). He may be trying to get more money out of the deal, but if he is, he's probably reneging on an existing contract, which is gonna cause even more problems. I also think he'd probably have mentioned something about the contract being renegotiated as the reason for the delay.

ktom said:

That is assuming, of course, that there is a Night's Watch left for him to be Lord Commander of. Mance claimed that the warhorn in his tent at the end of ASoS was the Horn of Winter. I'll go for the cliche and quote Anton Chekhov here: "If a gun is placed on the mantle in act 1, then it must be fired by act 3." Why else bring Joramun's horn into the story, if not to use it later?

soma said:

But do you know for a fact that it will work, and that even if it works, it will bring down the Wall? The fact that the horn exists and the Wall is still standing calls the power of the horn into question, doesn't it? It's the "how do you practice a rain dance" conundrum; if you don't practice, how do you know it'll work - but if it works, wouldn't the practice make it rain?

I would tend to agree that there may not be a Wall or a Night's Watch by then end of all this - but as long as there is a Watch, that's where Jon will be.Of course, all this is assuming that Jon even lives to see all of this. In these books, there is no guarantee that Jon will live to see the end of his own story.

ktom said:

Heh, true that.

There is the whole "magic coming back into the world" theme to take into the account. So far we've got Thoros of Myr, who before this was pretty much a priest in name only, bringing people back from the dead, an ironborn's lungs turned to ash by blowing another allegedly magic horn, three dragons born from petrified eggs where all previous attempts to hatch such eggs have failed, and a whole host of freaky stuff going on in the north that hasn't been seen for millenia. Maybe the horn didn't work before, but now?

More to the point, there would be huge dramatic significance if the wall comes down. If that happens then the wildlings and the others are everybody's problem. The others would kill everyone indiscriminately, Stark or Lannister, noble or common, trueborn or bastard. And as the Lannisters and Greyjoys continue to beggar Westeros with wars of blind ambition, who can be relied on to solve everyone's problem? There's no question that Jon takes his vows seriously enough to lead the Night's Watch. Failing that, would he take them seriously enough to lead the realm?