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2. AGoT Rules Discussion
The place to discuss rules, clarifications, bannings and erratta.
Moderator: FFG NateFFGAntonffgjafferffgjoshFFGStuartFFG_IanGeckoGood_TravelerThe Spaniard Topics: 3681 | Posts: 19305
Some questions about Kindly Man and Dark Star
Published on 20 February 2013 - 08:39:27
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1. if kindly man is taken control by the opponent and killed, will he become opponent's agenda if he has no agenda? and if he has agenda, where will kindly man go?

my opinion: since it's a replacement effect ( replace being killed), it'll become its controller's agenda if he has no agenda and will go to its owner's dead pile if its controller has agenda. 

 

2. can arya (the narrow sea version)'s ability be triggered when kindly man becomes an agenda?

my opinion: i think not, cause his being killed is replaced.

 

3. can river raid be triggered by dark star?

my opinion: i think not, cause dark star's ability is also a replacement effect, it is not discarded at all.

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Reply #1 | Published on 21 February 2013 - 00:56:22
  1. You're right, the initial effect goes through if a replacement effect fails.
  2. Wrong, the initial effect is still considered to have resolved successfully, which means you can pay for Maester of the Sun by discarding Darkstar into play.
  3. Same as 2.

Without Signature

Reply #2 | Published on 21 February 2013 - 01:18:59

that means you can stand Bronn(core) instead of kill House Dayne Skirmisher ,then draw a card?

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Reply #3 | Published on 21 February 2013 - 03:57:23
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no killing the House Dayne skirmisher is a cost, if it doesn't die the cost is unpaid and effect is not triggered, aslo he can't be saved as part of the cards ability anyway (i know bronn doesn't save, he prevents dying)

A.K.A. Umbrage, Roach, Mexican, Umbragè.

 

Reply #4 | Published on 21 February 2013 - 11:28:10
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Sulpures said:

1. if kindly man is taken control by the opponent and killed, will he become opponent's agenda if he has no agenda? and if he has agenda, where will kindly man go?

my opinion: since it's a replacement effect ( replace being killed), it'll become its controller's agenda if he has no agenda and will go to its owner's dead pile if its controller has agenda.

No, because whenever a card leaves play, it goes to its owner's corresponding out-of-play area. While the play restrictions for the replacement effect are always judged from the controller's point of view, Kindly Man can never end up as the Agenda of someone who is not its owner. This means there are 4 possible situations when a Kindly Man that has been "stolen" dies:

  1. Controller has no agenda, owner has no agenda: Kindly Man becomes the owner's agenda.
  2. Controller has an agenda, owner has no agenda: Kindly Man goes to owner's dead pile (the "as your only agenda," judged from controller's point of view, is not valid).
  3. Controller has no agenda, owner has an agenda: Kindly Man goes to owner's dead pile (it tries and fails to become owners agenda, replacement effect "fizzles," original kill destination reinstated)
  4. Controller has an agenda, owner has an agend: Kindly Man goes to owner's dead pile. Duh.

There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'

 - Dave Berry

Reply #5 | Published on 21 February 2013 - 19:05:18

thanks,what about Q2&Q3?about arya&dark star.

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Reply #6 | Published on 21 February 2013 - 20:22:27
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ktom said:

Sulpures said:

1. if kindly man is taken control by the opponent and killed, will he become opponent's agenda if he has no agenda? and if he has agenda, where will kindly man go?

 

my opinion: since it's a replacement effect ( replace being killed), it'll become its controller's agenda if he has no agenda and will go to its owner's dead pile if its controller has agenda.

No, because whenever a card leaves play, it goes to its owner's corresponding out-of-play area. While the play restrictions for the replacement effect are always judged from the controller's point of view, Kindly Man can never end up as the Agenda of someone who is not its owner. This means there are 4 possible situations when a Kindly Man that has been "stolen" dies:

 

  1. Controller has no agenda, owner has no agenda: Kindly Man becomes the owner's agenda.
  2. Controller has an agenda, owner has no agenda: Kindly Man goes to owner's dead pile (the "as your only agenda," judged from controller's point of view, is not valid).
  3. Controller has no agenda, owner has an agenda: Kindly Man goes to owner's dead pile (it tries and fails to become owners agenda, replacement effect "fizzles," original kill destination reinstated)
  4. Controller has an agenda, owner has an agend: Kindly Man goes to owner's dead pile. Duh.

 

I can only find in faq "When a card leaves play for any reason, it always returns to its owner's discard pile, dead pile, hand, deck, or shadows area".

If the statement "whenever a card leaves play, it goes to its owner's corresponding out-of-play area" is true, you are right.

 

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Reply #7 | Published on 22 February 2013 - 07:38:32
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Sulpures said:

I can only find in faq "When a card leaves play for any reason, it always returns to its owner's discard pile, dead pile, hand, deck, or shadows area".

If the statement "whenever a card leaves play, it goes to its owner's corresponding out-of-play area" is true, you are right.

You left the "(depending on the specific circumstances)" part off of the end of that quote.

Agendas aren't in play, right? So doesn't the beginning of that statement, "When a card leaves play for any reason," apply? And doesn't the final "(depending on the specific circumstances)" line cover even possibilities that are not listed?
 
The implication that character agendas somehow work differently from every other card in the game that leaves play simply because "as an agenda" is not included on a list of out-of-play areas written years before the mechanic was introduced makes no sense. As I recall, we went through this with Shadows, too. 

There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'

 - Dave Berry

Reply #8 | Published on 22 February 2013 - 18:54:57
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With The Kindly Man, it is not his being killed that is replaced, but his destination after dying. The way it works is that it is still a kill effect that removes him from play, so Arya can still respond to him dying, but he becomes an agenda instead of hitting the dead pile. As for Darkstar and River Raid, I would have to assume that the same holds true, he has been discarded for the purpose of responses to a card being discarded from the deck (or hand, whichever is true), even though the replacement effect changes his destination. However, I would like confirmation, as I'm not 100% certain that his replacement effect follows the same rule, though I can't see any reason why it wouldn't.

"…and Balerion… his fire was as black as his scales, his wings so vast that whole towns were swallowed up in their shadow when he passed overhead."

Reply #9 | Published on 23 February 2013 - 11:00:56
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There are two types of replacement effects.

The common type reads, more or less, as "If X would happen, do Y instead." These are usually "disposition" replacement effects that change the way a particular thing resolves without change the definition of what resolves. So, for example, when Darkstart says that if he would be discarded, put him into play, you effectively "discard him into play" instead of discarding him to the discard pile. It still counts as a successful "discard," though, for absolutely all other purposes (like paying costs, meeting the play restrictions of passives and responses, etc.) This is the same reason why, when using Pyat Pree, the identity of the challenge that resolves doesn't change, even though the claim effect for that challenge does.

The rare type reads, more or less, as "If X would happen, do Y instead of doing X." It's a subtle difference, but a very real one. These replacement effects are "complete" replacements in that they not only change the way something resolves, they change the definition of what resolves, too. As far as I know, the only example of this in the current environment is CS-Bronn. If you stand a character instead of killing it because of his ability, it counts as a standing effect, not a killing effect, for absolutely all other purposes (costs, play restrictions, etc.).

The original answers from Khudzlin for #2 & #3 were correct.

There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'

 - Dave Berry

Reply #10 | Published on 24 February 2013 - 19:13:37
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ktom said:

There are two types of replacement effects.

The common type reads, more or less, as "If X would happen, do Y instead." These are usually "disposition" replacement effects that change the way a particular thing resolves without change the definition of what resolves. So, for example, when Darkstart says that if he would be discarded, put him into play, you effectively "discard him into play" instead of discarding him to the discard pile. It still counts as a successful "discard," though, for absolutely all other purposes (like paying costs, meeting the play restrictions of passives and responses, etc.) This is the same reason why, when using Pyat Pree, the identity of the challenge that resolves doesn't change, even though the claim effect for that challenge does.

The rare type reads, more or less, as "If X would happen, do Y instead of doing X." It's a subtle difference, but a very real one. These replacement effects are "complete" replacements in that they not only change the way something resolves, they change the definition of what resolves, too. As far as I know, the only example of this in the current environment is CS-Bronn. If you stand a character instead of killing it because of his ability, it counts as a standing effect, not a killing effect, for absolutely all other purposes (costs, play restrictions, etc.).

The original answers from Khudzlin for #2 & #3 were correct.

 

Thanks for the explanation, Tom

Without Signature
Reply #11 | Published on 06 March 2013 - 22:12:35

I have Ser Kevan Lannister(VM) in play,then I use Enslaved control Opponent's Kindly Man

My opponent declare Military, I choose Ser Kevan Lannister to die,then my opponent play Die by the Sword kill Kindly Man

what happen?

I think first play decide,right?

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Reply #12 | Published on 07 March 2013 - 00:16:45

I may be wrong about this.

Kevan Lannister will be moribund:Agenda before any responses can be played.

Kindly Man cannot attach to YOUR house card as an Agenda, since you do not own the card - when cards leave play they go to their owner's out of play area.

 

So, end result - Kevan is your agenda.  Kindly Man is just dead.

Reply #13 | Published on 07 March 2013 - 00:27:07

If neither player has an agenda in the first place, the Kindly Man becomes its controller's agenda. Kevan is still moribund, so you don't have an agenda at the time.

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Reply #14 | Published on 07 March 2013 - 00:46:41

But wouldn't Kindly Man become moribund:Agenda after the response is played (and while Kevan is still moribund), so they would both attempt to become an agenda at the same time?

Assuming you're right about a Kindly Man you don't own being able to become your agenda, that is.

Reply #15 | Published on 07 March 2013 - 01:18:18
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radiskull said:

Assuming you're right about a Kindly Man you don't own being able to become your agenda, that is.

He is right. We've been through this a couple of times before.

 

radiskull said:

Kindly Man cannot attach to YOUR house card as an Agenda, since you do not own the card - when cards leave play they go to their owner's out of play area.

 

But cards you don't own do not revert to their owner's out-of-play area until they actually leave play. The fact that Kindly Man will revert to its owner's control when it is removed from play does not affect the moribund state it enters into at all.

Because cards always go to their owner's out-of-play area, they technically go into a "moribund:(owner's) dead pile" state when they are killed (for example). That means that if "you" do not have an agenda when the Kindly Man you have taken control of is killed, it's replacement effect is completely valid and the character enters the "moribund:(owner's) agenda" state. At the end of the action window, it will therefore attempt to attach as it's owner's agenda. If the owner has an agenda, that's the point that the replacement would fail (since the FAQ tells us that existing agendas cannot be displaced), sending the card to the original, unmodified dead pile.

So, to answer the original question:

  1. There is no conflict (and nothing for the First Player) to decide because the Kindly Man the Lannister player took control of can never end up in the Lannister player's House card.
  2. Since the Lannister player did not have an agenda (Kevan is still on the table) when Kindly Man is killed, it will try to attach to the Stark player's House card (i.e., it's owner's House card) as an agenda at the end of the window.
  3. If the Stark player already has an agenda, the conversion to an agenda fails and the character ends up in the original destination (the dead pile).
  4. So, the end result is: Kevan will become the Lannister player's agenda, Kindly Man will become the Stark player's agenda (unless he already has one).

 

There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'

 - Dave Berry

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