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The place to discuss rules, clarifications, bannings and erratta.
Dragon sight says " If if is Summer,when you declare a challenge type,your opponent must declare defenders before you declare attackers. The opportunity for your opponent to declare defenders after you declare attackers is lost."
When I declare a challenge type, my opponenet must declare defenders. My question is that if he has to kneel those characters at the same time, or just to declare and do not kneel before I kneel my characters as attackers?
The other question is what about a character with naval enhancement controlled by defender? Can he declare that character as defender via the naval enhancement after I declare attackers?
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sky_cuson said:
sky_cuson said:
There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'
- Dave Berry
Thank you Ktom. And now I have three more questions.
1) If I have no char with military icon in play, can I declare a military challenge? If so, can I put Horseback Archers into play from my hand through player action as soon as my opponent declare defender?
2) Can I declare no attacker after my opponent declare his defender, even if I have eligible characters in play?
3) If my opponent declare no defender, can he put Catelyn Stark into play and kneel as defender after I declare attacker?
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this might help you…
ktom said:
Normally, the anatomy of a challenge looks like this:
1. Initiate Challenge
1a. Attacker announces challenge type
1b. Attacker declares/kneels attacking characters.
2. Player Actions
3. Defend Challenge
3a. Attacker identifies Stealth "targets"
3b. Defender declares/kneels defending characters
4. Player Actions
5. Resolve challenge
When Dragon Sight is in play and applicable, that sequence changes to the following:
1. Initiate Challenge
1a. Attacker announces challenge type
1b. Defender declares/kneels defending characters
1c. Attacker declares/kneels attacking characters.
2. Player Actions
[3. Defend Challenge
3a. Attacker identifies Stealth "targets"]
NOTE: This technically still happens, but it is virtually meaningless.
4. Player Actions
5. Resolve challenge
So, the only thing that really changes is that declaring defenders essentially becomes part of initiating the challenge. Note that the normal things REQUIRED to initiate a challenge (announcing challenge type AND declaring attackers) still must take place. The basic rule "you must declare at least one attacking character in order to initiate a challenge" is not contradicted, suspended or superseded by anything in Dragon Sight's text.
Also note that since the opportunity to declare defenders at the "normal time" goes away, stealth essentially becomes meaningless and will not keep a defending character out of a particular challenge. Stealthing a character that is already participating as a defender will not "bounce" it out of the challenge or otherwise stop it from adding its STR as a defender.
When you take the above and apply it to the original questions, you get the following:
- The attacking player MUST declare at least one attacking character after seeing which characters will be defending. It is part of initiating the challenge (a process you started by announcing the challenge type). If you don't declare at least one attacking character, you didn't initiate the challenge. And if you didn't initiate the challenge, there is nothing for those declared defenders to be participating in. So no, Dragon Sight cannot be used to back out of kneeling attackers after seeing how big the defense will be.
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. -Terry Pratchett
sky_cuson said:
1) If I have no char with military icon in play, can I declare a military challenge? If so, can I put Horseback Archers into play from my hand through player action as soon as my opponent declare defender?
2) Can I declare no attacker after my opponent declare his defender, even if I have eligible characters in play?
3) If my opponent declare no defender, can he put Catelyn Stark into play and kneel as defender after I declare attacker?
1. No.
2. No.
3. Not sure what you mean by "put Catelyn Stark into play and kneel as defender." But Yes - he can use Catelyn Starks ability to put her into play (already knelt) as a defender.
There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'
- Dave Berry
I was wondering how Walder Frey ineracts with Dragon Sight - After defenders are declared he joins in the challenge on the side with the highest strength
I assume this still occurs in step 4 of the action window - the normal step after defenders have been declared
Also I assume, maybe incorrectly, that this would be the first action - i.e. before anyone else can do something to reduce / increase some character strenghts
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Walder's passive ability would kick in during Step 4 of the "initiate challenge" window - instead of the usual Step 4 of the "assign stealth/declare defenders" window - because that's where the defenders were declared. This is, of course, before you get to the "Player Action" window between initiating the challenge and assigning stealth/declaring defenders.
There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'
- Dave Berry
Would attackers have been declared at this point?
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Khudzlin said:
- Attacker declares challenge type and opponent
- Defender declares/kneels defending characters
- Attacker declares/kneels attacking characters
After you do all three of those things, you move on to passives and responses to any and all of them. That's where Walder would kick in. It's no different than no being able to resolve passives/Responses to winning/losing a challenge until after claim, unopposed, and renown are resolved.
Ultimately, though, it wouldn't matter if attackers had been declared at that point or not because Walder's ability is passive and is initiated "after at least 1 defender is declared during a challenge." So he is initiated based on the declaration of attackers, not there being participating characters on both sides. Of course, there is no scenario in which his ability will kick in when there are only defenders, though.
There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'
- Dave Berry
Another question on Dragon Sight.
In Melee, with the Crown Regent title, how does it interract ?
The title says This title also has a special ability that allows you to redirect one challenge each round. After a player initiates a challenge and declares a target and attackers, you may use this title to make that player choose a new target for the attack!
So if we apply this, at the time the redirection can be used, we have also defenders assigned in the challenge. What happens ?
You redirect and a new player becomes the defending player. BUT:
- The new defending player will not be able to declare defenders in the "normal" place because Dragon Sight is still wiping out that opportunity.
- The current defending characters, who have not been specifically removed from the challenge, will still be participating and will still count their STR toward resolution.
Effectively, all you have done by redirecting at that point is to change the identity of the defending player - which could have implications for claim, Renown, Deadly, a other "after you win/lose/resolve a challenge" effects.
There is a fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'
- Dave Berry
Clear answer, thank you.
ktom said:
You redirect and a new player becomes the defending player. BUT:
- The new defending player will not be able to declare defenders in the "normal" place because Dragon Sight is still wiping out that opportunity.
- The current defending characters, who have not been specifically removed from the challenge, will still be participating and will still count their STR toward resolution.
Effectively, all you have done by redirecting at that point is to change the identity of the defending player - which could have implications for claim, Renown, Deadly, a other "after you win/lose/resolve a challenge" effects.
Now that's just sneaky… :-P
"A little nonesense now & then is relished by the wisest men." - Willy Wonka.
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