+++++Well, models I can definetly see, it's stats that I find iffy (for the Emperor too)

If you're going to stat The Emperor, you might as well find a way to stat Tzeentch next, or the Old Ones. While Primarchs are just as problematic as putting C'Tan on the table. They're freaking inarnate gods, they might as well have a special rule that automatically gives them the win. They're too powerful to stat up properly, beyond even how it is with Space Marines, and even toned down they will be absolutely sick to the point where it sucks the fun out of the game.+++++

I doubt their tabletop stats will allow them to live up to their reputation. But hey, I don't think Marines tabletop stats allow them to live up to their reputation, so that is nothing new. :-)

(Of course, I think a roleplaying game where no one has to play (and more importantly paint the models for) the opposition is where they CAN live up to their reputation…) 

+++++And I've said before, I love Space Marines, but Deathwatch has a pretty goood scope of their power laid out. Which goes just fine with my personal preference of having to actually fight for my character's victory (putting the literal in to "hard earned").+++++

I dunno. I don't want to make to much of it but I would swear at the Olympics we like people who dominate their events. If Michael Phelps was a country he would be the 24th most successful country in Olympic History (about as successful as ALL OF INDIA!). Usain Bolt, the Big Man, is a legend and no one came close to him. Serena Williams destroyed Sharapova in straight sets to win gold and everyone loves her. Jessica Ennis accelerated away from the rest of the field to win her last event by a margin and the whole country went nuts.

 But Wolf, that doesn't relate to a table top game at all. Games like these are about having at least some semblance of balance, if the Olympics were like WH40K Phelps would start 3 seconds after everyone else, so you can't really compare the two.

That said, Forgeworld has stats for titans, thats probably ca what a primarch is like :P

 According to widely believed rumors they are going to have Primarch Stats and Models. They've said they will be Apocalypse only, which has titans and super daemons so having there's plenty of room to live up to the fluff, as much as anything else in the game does.

+++++But Wolf, that doesn't relate to a table top game at all.+++++

I agree. But this is a roleplaying game, and we do not have to worry about such things!

:0)

(That said, this is mostly an image thing. I think people in general respect a dominant athlete more than someone who has to scrabble for wins. That said, my own personal hero this year is Ben Ainslie partially because I sail a bit, but also because he tends to win through determination and relentless aggression and killer instinct. See, because of the rules of sailing competitions, it isn't just about how fast you can go, but also how good you are at fucking your opponents. In particular, because it is a series of races, and you drop your worst results to decide placings, it is sometimes better to ensure your opponent comes in at the back of the field in a particular race than it is to win said race. And through wind blocking and the rules on collision avoidance, you can make that happen (the rules on collision avoidance in also tend to make racing very much about getting in the way of people in general). Anyway, at his first Olympics, even though he was a faster sailor the then big man forced him in to second place by aggressive use of said rules. He decided he wasn't having this, and at the next Olympics, he very much went after said guy using the same tactics only with even greater killer instinct and won the gold. Then he won gold at the next two Olympics, usually with his metaphorical foot firmly on the neck of his nearest rivals. This year, things were looking bad. In the first half of the races he always placed behind the Danish sailor. Then the Dane and another competitor accused him of touching a marker. "They've made me angry," he said. "You don't want to do that." And the fight back began. In the second to last race, with Ainslie leading and the Dane in second, he actually dropped back, let the Dane catch up, and then by placing his boat upwind of his opponents and blocking the wind on to his sail, he forced the Dane in to third place. By doing so, all he had to do in the last race was place ahead of the Dane. Which he did, sitting on the Dane to make sure he didn't get ahead.

Anyway, this was dragging out a win by refusing to give up, so.)

+++++That said, Forgeworld has stats for titans, thats probably ca what a primarch is like :P+++++

Primarch vs. a Titan?

No contest!  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUdrFkW1RY8

AluminiumWolf said:

How easy a time do you think these people have? Phelps, Williams, etc., they're competing in the olympics, against some of the greatest athletes in the world (okay, so Sri Lanka or Kazakhstan may not have some of the best), they've been training for years, these sports are their freaking lives. Phelps didn't casually backstroke his way in to his latest gold medals, he combined a lifetime of training with tonnes of natural talent and during the actual competitions you can be sure he tried his hardest every step of the way.

Do we like the people who "dominate" their events? Yes? Are you totally blowing this "domination" out of proportion? Yes. It's not like Phelps sat around for 5 minutes while everyone else finished the race, one fuckup, missed stroke, bad start, whatever, and Phelps would have been hitting the bong to make up for the fact that he didn't get squat, let alone bronze or silver. Look at the times for the races he's been in, he's only been fractions of a second ahead of the other competitors.

To reiterate, people train and work on their performance their whole lives before going to the olympics, pouring their blood, sweat, and tears in to it, to be a little melodramatic. It's not easy for a single one of them, and they can't rest on their laurels for a second because that's not the kind of behavior that takes you all the way to the olympics. Every one of them has earned their gold/silver/bronze medal. Hell, they've earned their place on the freakin team, since you have to be among your nation's best to even qualify.

And as they actually have to try, to fight, for their win, so to do I like to do the same when playing an RPG, even a Space Marine. Especially a Space Marine.

 But we do need to get what we're talking about straight, don't we? You keep changing the base parameters, one moment it's about the table top game and fielding primarchs, then it's about the roleplaying game, back and forth depending on what suits your argument. Please, a little consistency mr. Wolf. 

+++++But we do need to get what we're talking about straight, don't we? You keep changing the base parameters, one moment it's about the table top game and fielding primarchs, then it's about the roleplaying game, back and forth depending on what suits your argument. Please, a little consistency mr. Wolf.+++++

I think I have been consistent!

I think:-

The Forge Worlds book will include rules for fielding Primarchs, but their potency will be toned down for balance reasons in the same way regular Marines are. 

However, a potential roleplaying game doesn't have to worry about balance, and is a great place to let people experience the Primarch Power they have always dreamed of!

--

+++++And as they actually have to try, to fight, for their win, so to do I like to do the same when playing an RPG, even a Space Marine. Especially a Space Marine.+++++

I dunno. Phelps and Bolt are quite clearly better than their opponents, and they are the guys we like.

 If they make a 30K RPG, they'd have to be crazy to make the Primarchs or the Emperor playable. The only things less than fellow Primarchs that have killed a Primarch are an assassin who was allowed to kill Curze and Dorn riding a battleship into a nuclear explosion. I wouldn't find any pleasure in playing some ubermensch who swats away Deathwatch Master-level enemies without breaking a sweat. I need the chance of failure to enjoy a roleplaying game. Dominating everything gets old. As to the potential Titan vs Primarch match, it all depends on the specifics of the match. If they start out ten meters away from each other, and the Titan doesn't get the chance to stomp on the Primarch, then yeah, the Primarch wins. But Titans have such massive firepower that they would incinerate a Primarch at range.

Like I say though, it is the dominant athletes who get all the glory.

And anyway, the whole point of the Heresy is that half the Primarchs square off against the other half, so there is your competition right there.

 Fair point, but I for one would rather play a Great Crusade game that leads into the Heresy than just a Horus Heresy game, so enemy Primarchs wouldn't be applicable for half or more of the campaign.

But… we do have at least a couple very good markers for a Primarch's ability based on some things that appear in the wargame already:

Sanguinus vs a Bloodthirster - which was NOT an easy fight.  Sanguinus got the better of it, but keep in mind that wasn't even Round 1 (We'll know more about Round 1 soon enough when the Blood Angles Heresy book lands later this month)

One of the Primarchs (I forget if it was Alpharius or Fulgrim or possibly still another one…) vs an Eldar Avatar - again, it was NOT an easy fight.  Though again, the Primarch was better.

And I'm pretty sure some of the short stories have seen a Primarch against at least a Lord of Change and another against a Keeper of Secrets.  (Or at least one of the above - the short stories blur a bit for me though)

In all cases, yes, the Primarch wins.  But in general they're not easy fights by any stretch.

And of course we know Chaos Infused (Though already wounded by Sanguinus!) Horus is enough to nearly beat a reluctant Emperor.

So regardless, we do have some scale to work with there with Wargame Conversions in regards to fights against Top Tier enemy types in said wargame. 

That said I doubt I'd be surprised if Primarch Stats work out to be somewhere in the realm of straight 10s.  Possibly a few 8s or 9s here and there depending on the Primarch.

 In the fights you reference… Ka'Bandha, the Bloodthirster who Sanguinius broke over his knee at the Siege of Terrra, previously broke (other words used are "snapped" and "crushed", depending on source) Sanguinius's legs and forced the Primarch and his Legion from the Daemon World of Signus Prime. It's also theorized that Ka'Bandha might be responsible for the Black Rage. As for Fulgrim versus the Avatar of Khaine… well, Fulgrim owned that particular Avatar. He killed it with his hands. Melted off his power armor's gauntlets and left his hands blackened and blistered, but he literally punched its face off. As for Horus versus the Big E, it's worth noting that Lupercal was infused with the power and influence of all four of the Ruinous Powers, and Papa E wasn't willing to accept that his son had truly fallen until Ollanius Pius (who was a Guardsman, dammit. Not an Imperial Fist Terminator, not a Custodes, but a normal, run of the mill Guardsman) stepped up to the plate, promptly got his face stomped with a LOOK from Horus, and made the Emperor realize that all hope was lost. Then, pew pew psyker beams, Horus be dead.

Hey, I did say against a reluctant Emperor!  And again, remember Sanguinus made the dent/hole in the armor that helped win…

But back on the Bloodthirster, I'll also add this:  Greater Daemons are another of those special snowflakes of the setting that never really gets handled that consistently.  In some they're able to be taken down by massed Tankfire… in other situations one of them can pretty much melt entire regiments of Guardsmen with a look.  Heck, even a greater Daemon's size seems… random.  Or their comparisons to Daemon Princes (Sometimes greater than, other times far weaker then…)

Granted, it makes sense if there's tiers of Greater Daemondom too.  But those aren't demarcated in the setting anywhere.

On a purely theoretical level, it's even kinda cool to think of the Primarchs as the Emperor's "Greater Daemons"