Kshatriya said:

I love Lovecraftian horrors in games because I'm not out to scare the characters - I'm out to scare my players. I want them to look at this barely euclidian thing crawling through angles towards them and think "Holy shit - we can't take this!" then have their own characters prove them wrong in ways that make us all high five each other for weeks.

Shadow Walker said:

Deathwatch is about fighting all the enemies of Man, mostly Xenos, but I'd say the VAST majority of people would find it boring to not have ANY rules for loyalist SMs fighting CSMs. I have hope that FFG will continue to expand Chaos options, and I don't think FFG needs to "finally" understand anything in doing so.

Adeptus-B said:

You make it sound as if GKs would NEVER fight xenos. Sheesh.

Also Daemon Hunter uses the awful DH psychic rules, heh.

Kshatriya said:

What's so awful about the DH psychic rules? I actually like them better than the bland, flavorless WP skill check cooked up by FFG.

Adeptus-B said:

Except that from a thematic and gameplay perspective, having Grey Knights fight Traitor Marines is quite different.

Firstly, Grey Knight are equipped very differently and fight very differently from either other Loyalist Marines and Traitor Marines. If a GM pits loyalist Marines (whether of the Deathwatch or "standard" Chapters) against CSM for gameplay reasons, he does so to allow for a "mirror-match". Putting a dark mirror in front of the player characters and their players to fight against. Similar equpiment, similar tactics, similar capabilities. With Grey Knights these things fly right out of the window.

Thematically, Grey Knights handle and view fighting Traitor Marines very differently from other Loyalist Marines. Grey Knights stand apart from other Loyalists more than perhaps any other Chapter. Their view of the world and themselves is very different (up to some Grey Knights even refering to other Loyalists Chapters collectively as "the lesser Chapters"). For most Loyalists, a CSM is a Fallen Brother that must be dealt with to Honour the Emperor, their Primarch, their own Vows and -dare I say it?- ease their own doubts. CSM are what a Loyalist could be if he loses what makes him loyal. Thematically, just as above, they are the ultimate dark mirror. Grey Knights could hardly relate to that. Their ties to other Space Marines are slim indeed and their very nature is different. For a Grey Knight, a CSM is almost just another enemy to slay.

Therefore, many of the themes that makes Loyalist vs Traitor interesting are lost when the players are Grey Knights. Of course you could argue that then the GM could make a campaign with all PCs being from one Chapter, but then you lose what makes Deathwatch fun and special compared to single-Chapter games.

borithan said:

Like others mentioned, it looks like a setting book. And as is heavily implied to be about the 'dark corners of the map', the places where people used to write "here be dragons", and will cover the terrifying, malevolent horrors that lurk out there among the periphery of Man's domains.

TorogTarkdacil812 said:

Not so surprising really, the fluffy bits of 40K have always been what makes the fans, above and beyond the game itself.

Shadow Walker said:

Necrons at last! Diving into Tomb and fighting C'tan Shard would be awesome. It also gives little hope that FFG finally understood that Deathwatch should be about fighting Xenos not Chaos.

Kshatriya said:

Deathwatch is about fighting all the enemies of Man, mostly Xenos, but I'd say the VAST majority of people would find it boring to not have ANY rules for loyalist SMs fighting CSMs. I have hope that FFG will continue to expand Chaos options, and I don't think FFG needs to "finally" understand anything in doing so.

Honestly, this has become one of my big pet peeves about DW. I really can't fucking STAND it.

I mean really, the Deathwatch is supposed to ONLY fight aliens? Do they recruit only the most retarded of Space Marines, that they're going to sit around ignoring mutants, traitors, and daemons, just because they'r alien fighting specialists? And I suppose the SEALS only do missions where the enemy is on boats? Or the SAS are only sent out if they can use parachutes to get to the target?

Give me a break.
 

Honestly, this has become one of my big pet peeves about DW. I really can't fucking STAND it.

I mean really, the Deathwatch is supposed to ONLY fight aliens? Do they recruit only the most retarded of Space Marines, that they're going to sit around ignoring mutants, traitors, and daemons, just because they'r alien fighting specialists? And I suppose the SEALS only do missions where the enemy is on boats? Or the SAS are only sent out if they can use parachutes to get to the target?

Give me a break.
 

[/QUOTE]

Yes, they are supposed to only fight aliens because that was the very reason they were created for and they are chamber militant of Ordo XENOS. And no they won't ignore other threats when they encounter them. Sublime difference lie in that they won't be send to mission to fight Chaos cultists just because they are enemies of the Imperium. That is what other Chapters and forces of the Imperium are for. They will be send to misions to have anything related to Xenos threat and only when that mission is in danger they will react and stomp some Chaos. They will fight Chaos worshipping aliens because they are aliens not their religion. Is it so hard to understand?

I understand how special operations works better than you it seems. Their primary mission is to combat the alien threat. But as part of the Imperial military hierarchy, it is not only their obligation but their duty to strike against mankind's myriad other foes. They are a military force, and not one constrained by retarded rules of engagement that tell them they can only run missions against aliens and nothing else. I mean, frankly, if we follow your judement the Deathwatch is responsible for the Jericho Reach being such a horrific mess as it is now, because they sat back and let Chaos take over, and create a huge warp-realspace overlap in the centre of the former sector. But they didn't, we know they've actively run missions against Chaos over the years, and were just stretched too thin to keep things from getting that bad.

Sometimes the other Chapters, the Imperial Guard, and whatever else, aren't around. They're too far away, or they're too busy fighting some other war, and you mean to tell me that just because the Deathwatch has a specialty they're going to ignore some guy sacrificing a planet to get daemonhood?

They're not supposed to only fight aliens, you ass. They're supposed to protect the Imperium from aliens, and woe to anything else that they happen to find in their path along the way to that. Real life special operations don't limit themselves to one field, what the hell stupid idea makes you think the Space Marines would, or should? And do you even have the slightest idea how much screaming there would have been if they hadn't put plenty of opportunity in to fight Chaos Marines. The enmity between loyalist and traitor Astartes is pretty much one of the defining characteristics of the whole game setting, it is in the underpinnings of why the galaxy is just so fucked up. And to provide a further, rl example, JTF-2 (Canadian special forces) is designated as a counter-terrorist force, but it hasn't stopped them from being deployed in Afghanistan since the very beginings of the war there, and there's nothing 'counter-terrorist' about that deployment.

Blood Pact said:

You are making our point: the Deathwatch was created to specialize in fighting xenos. Of course they will kill any other enemies of the Emperor that get in their way, but, to maintain the theme of the Deathwatch concept, those 'other enemies' should be the exception, not the rule. This is the exact opposite of the situation in the Jericho Reach setting, where the Deathwatch, through tortured logic that exists only to pander to pimply-faced fanboys ("Chaosh ish aweshome!"), have a near-Chapter-sized preasence (?!) in a Sector which they have pledged to reclaim from Chaos… and, oh yeah, occasionally kill xenos that get in the way.

Any competant writer or GM can easily come up with excuses for a Deathwatch Killteam to have 'change-of-pace' encounters with Chaos that don't fly in the face of their position as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos. For instance, they could be sent to find out where an Ork Waaagh! is getting their looted artillary from, and discover that Chaos Space Marines are giving it to the Orks to divert attention from one of their own nefarious schemes. Or they could encounter a minor xeno race that worships- and summons- daemons.

But to make a Crusade against Chaos the cornerstone of a game about elite xeno-fighters? I find that to be pure cheese, and I don't use the Jericho Reach setting for that reason.

Lionus said:

Overbleed gets completely broken especially with certain Disciplines.

Also it's a completely different action mechanic than anything else in the game. Pointlessly complex.

Shadow Walker said:

Yes, they are supposed to only fight aliens because that was the very reason they were created for and they are chamber militant of Ordo XENOS. And no they won't ignore other threats when they encounter them. Sublime difference lie in that they won't be send to mission to fight Chaos cultists just because they are enemies of the Imperium. That is what other Chapters and forces of the Imperium are for. They will be send to misions to have anything related to Xenos threat and only when that mission is in danger they will react and stomp some Chaos. They will fight Chaos worshipping aliens because they are aliens not their religion. Is it so hard to understand?

"Sublime difference lie in that they won't be send to mission to fight Chaos cultists just because they are enemies of the Imperium."

BS. Space Marines will just plain fight.

Without the Deathwatch, the Jericho Reach would be even more overrun with Chaos than it currently is since Erioch launched operations against the Archenemy after the sector fell. This is perfectly in line with SMs seeing a threat and responding to it. That they are elite xenos fighters doesn't mean that they will not combat other threats to the Imperium, just as Ordo Hereticus won't pass up an opportunity to kill some xenos and Order Malleus will purge heretics given the chance.

Asserting that Inquisitorial Space Marines would say "well, this place is going to hell but, uh, no xenos, so we'll just hang out til an Eldar pirate ship appears" is pants-on-head retarded.

[QUOTE efidm=683470]

Blood Pact said:

…They're supposed to protect the Imperium from aliens, and woe to anything else that they happen to find in their path along the way to that…

You are making our point: the Deathwatch was created to specialize in fighting xenos. Of course they will kill any other enemies of the Emperor that get in their way, but, to maintain the theme of the Deathwatch concept, those 'other enemies' should be the exception, not the rule. This is the exact opposite of the situation in the Jericho Reach setting, where the Deathwatch, through tortured logic that exists only to pander to pimply-faced fanboys ("Chaosh ish aweshome!"), have a near-Chapter-sized preasence (?!) in a Sector which they have pledged to reclaim from Chaos… and, oh yeah, occasionally kill xenos that get in the way.

Any competant writer or GM can easily come up with excuses for a Deathwatch Killteam to have 'change-of-pace' encounters with Chaos that don't fly in the face of their position as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos. For instance, they could be sent to find out where an Ork Waaagh! is getting their looted artillary from, and discover that Chaos Space Marines are giving it to the Orks to divert attention from one of their own nefarious schemes. Or they could encounter a minor xeno race that worships- and summons- daemons.

But to make a Crusade against Chaos the cornerstone of a game about elite xeno-fighters? I find that to be pure cheese, and I don't use the Jericho Reach setting for that reason.

[/QUOTE]

I guess you want to ignore the fact that the Crusade was originally against both Chaos and the Tau, and arguably the biggest threat to reclaiming the sector are now the Tyranids? That 2/3 of the Achilus Crusade is directed at xenos? Guess that's not quite obvious enough…

You can call it cheese, I'm sure FFG calls it "a winning formula for sales," and that's really what matters in the end.

Adeptus-B said:

Exactly. DW with its current setting was just excuse for general SM game instead Xenos hunting. Of course Blood Pact like persons who cannot argue without insulting people who dare to have different opinion will never see it.

Shadow Walker said:

What??? 

Deathwatch's setting includes three major adversary forces. 2 of the 3 are xenos races. They're about to add Necrons, a third major Xenos race. The last adventure book (Rising Tempest) was focused around a Deathwatch mission to stop the rise of an ancient xenos power, all the while fighting the Tau (mostly) and whoever else got in the way of that anti-xenos mission.

So really, what are you talking about?

BYE

Shadow Walker said:

Let's face it a lot people wanted to be versus a Traitor Marines, hell a lot of chapters loose a bit in the way of motivation if they never see any Chaos forces at all. Leaving that out, or Chaos out in general, is a big hit on the draw of a DW RPG. And the Deathwatch is a golden opportunity, it's the only time a group of marines off all different chapters get to together, there's no way it wasn't going to about deathwatch at the start.

Of course the setting could have been handled differently, i've got no qualms about there being three enemy forces around. Chaos cults are practically omni-present (although that doesn't mean Space marines are) and would probably be on any Imperial border, after that it's just a matter of selecting a border with an alien empire (in this case Tau) that the Nids are going to be hitting (and they will be hitting a lot of sectors at once.

In short they didn't really need a separate salient for the Chaos forces. These sectors are 10's of light years across and there will be few (although any good writer can come up with one) reasons for the DW to be sent there in the first place. Even the 'only Space Marines in the sector' thing isn't actual the case as this crusade is damn near overrun with the things.

And looking at the 6th edition rule books ally chart (which I don't imply is a hard a fast rule that we have to live by) javascript:void(0);/*1342703361191*/, the Tau will ally with Chaos quite readily, they could easy have been mixed in with the Tau frontier as allies, mercenaries and just opportunists against the hated Imperium.

Keep in mind that the way DW is set up - with source books like First Founding and Honour The Chapter - you don't have to play Deathwatch Marines at all. Instead you can play pretty much any chapter you like.

Also, battling Xenos exclusively can get quite boring.

Dok Martin said:

The Tabletop game used to have Space Marine 'Crusade Armies' which were made up of remnants up decimated units from different Chapters thrown togeather; I think that concept works better with the Jericho Reach setting than having the Deathwatch be the core of the Crusade.

Dok Martin said:

Again, I'm not saying exclusively, I'm saying the Deathwatch sould primarily be fighting xenos; if the GM wants to add some Chaos for a change of pace, that can logically be done (Tau hiring Chaos renegade mercenaries, for instance) without stumbling over the 'why is this a Deathwatch mission and not a Grey Knights mission? Aren't there people who specialize in fighting Chaos who should be doing this?' problem that dominates the Jericho Reach setting.

-And it's disingenuous to say that two-thirds of the adversaries in the Jericho Reach are xenos. The founding principle- the absolute cornerstone- of the setting is that the Sector fell to Chaos; the Tau and Tyranids are almost an afterthought.

I agree with one thing that Kshatriya said: ultimately, it's all about sales- and I hope that xeno-focused supplements end up selling better that the Chaos-dominated ones, so that FFG starts channeling the game in that direction.