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zombieneighbours said:
Argh...No, not a temple assassin!!!!!
I'm guessing that you are unaware that the Vindicare and Death Cult assassins will not just be detailed in; but also playable as of, the DH book Ascension? Assassins as scouts aren't entirely unreasonable except maybe the Eversor and Culexus. They come across as much more "programmed to kill" then the other temples.
-=Brother Praetus=-
"Truth is so precious it must be attended by a bodyguard of lies."
(Fortune Cookie)
"They say that once you have opened the final gate there is no way back."
(Fortune Cookie)
Death cult are not temple assassins, and i consider the inclusion of Vindicare to have been a really poor decision as far as consistancy with the setting material goes.
Death Watch: It's like Beowulf with boltguns
Mjoellnir said:
That's pretty much what people said in another thread about Space Marines.
And Callidus are at least taught to act like normal humans (sometimes, other times they have to act like normal Eldar, normal crazed cultists, normal orkz, normal symbionts.....)
The important section here is 'act like'.
The Callidus are capable of realistically impersonating almost any human in the imperium with comparatively minimal preperation, adopting speech patterns, movement, body language, cultural nuances and much else besides. 'She' can adopt, near perfectly the modes of thought of other species, worshippers of the ruinious powers and worse, without ever allowing 'herself' to actually think that way. She has been treated with genetheripy to allow her to use a drug that makes into other people and things, she has no friends, no loves, no passions, no personal fueds, not personality, beyond those she assumes to carry out her orders.
Sure she can fool you that she is admiral adama, or spider jerusilium, but so could a convosation program capable of passing the turing test. Neither is really any more human than the other.
Marines by comparison have rich lives dedicated to honour, glory and faith. Each chapter has a rich culture all its own. every marine has friendships and pacts of brotherhood with their fellow marines, they have student mentor relationships, both with those that taught them, and those they teach, they have legands, myths and secrets. Each chapter has a list of rivalries with the other chapter, hated enemies from battles of years go bye.
Marines feel, and do so passionately. Officio Assassinorum temple assassins put simply put, don't.
Playing a Death Watch marine, is like playing an L5R samuria in power armour, or beowulf with a bolt gun.
Playing a temple assassin is like playing the termonator.
Death Watch: It's like Beowulf with boltguns
zombieneighbours said:
Mjoellnir said:
That's pretty much what people said in another thread about Space Marines. And Callidus are at least taught to act like normal humans (sometimes, other times they have to act like normal Eldar, normal crazed cultists, normal orkz, normal symbionts.....)
The important section here is 'act like'.
The Callidus are capable of realistically impersonating almost any human in the imperium with comparatively minimal preperation, adopting speech patterns, movement, body language, cultural nuances and much else besides. 'She' can adopt, near perfectly the modes of thought of other species, worshippers of the ruinious powers and worse, without ever allowing 'herself' to actually think that way. She has been treated with genetheripy to allow her to use a drug that makes into other people and things, she has no friends, no loves, no passions, no personal fueds, not personality, beyond those she assumes to carry out her orders.
Sure she can fool you that she is admiral adama, or spider jerusilium, but so could a convosation program capable of passing the turing test. Neither is really any more human than the other.
Marines by comparison have rich lives dedicated to honour, glory and faith. Each chapter has a rich culture all its own. every marine has friendships and pacts of brotherhood with their fellow marines, they have student mentor relationships, both with those that taught them, and those they teach, they have legands, myths and secrets. Each chapter has a list of rivalries with the other chapter, hated enemies from battles of years go bye.
Marines feel, and do so passionately. Officio Assassinorum temple assassins put simply put, don't.
Playing a Death Watch marine, is like playing an L5R samuria in power armour, or beowulf with a bolt gun.
Playing a temple assassin is like playing the termonator.
Beowulf with a boltgun....I salute you sir!
Death is the only truth.
Why thank you sir. :D Much appreciated.
Death Watch: It's like Beowulf with boltguns
Tullio said:
I'd avoid all Temple Assassins like the plague, partly because of thier flat appeal for roleplaying (Ok, ok, the Callidus does have a fair bit) but also because I can easily imagine my PCs complaining when they don't actually get to just roll a dice and expect to automatically win. Prime case in the Vindicare - I've found that usually if anyone wants to play one, it's the sniper who wants an excuse to never miss and never recieve retaliation. It shouldn't have to be like this, I know, but it's something I'd rather avoid.
I don't like dumb players. If they want to win they have to act like a Vindicare instead of just playing one. That means using the right skills, the right equipment, the right time, plan their escape etc.
Kanluwen said:
Night Lords, Alpha Legion, and Raven Guard beg to differ with you. ;)
There's nothing saying that it's impossible to sneak while wearing Astartes Power Armour. It's just really, really, really difficult.
But yeah. There's nothing I've seen saying that Battle-Brothers with aptitudes for stealth and infiltration might opt to discard their Power Armour for Carapace for a missionif the mission would be better served by them wearing the Carapace armor and sneaking. But a good Drop Pod assault has a far, far better effect than sneaking in, it seems.
Space Wolves scouts beg to differ with you.
It's just hard to imagine a squad of 10 giants in black armour that should make a lot of noise on hard surfaces in a human-sized city.
zombieneighbours said:
The important section here is 'act like'.
The Callidus are capable of realistically impersonating almost any human in the imperium with comparatively minimal preperation, adopting speech patterns, movement, body language, cultural nuances and much else besides. 'She' can adopt, near perfectly the modes of thought of other species, worshippers of the ruinious powers and worse, without ever allowing 'herself' to actually think that way. She has been treated with genetheripy to allow her to use a drug that makes into other people and things, she has no friends, no loves, no passions, no personal fueds, not personality, beyond those she assumes to carry out her orders.
Evil question: If she can fake to be everything perfectly, does it really matter that she fakes it?
zombieneighbours said:
Sure she can fool you that she is admiral adama, or spider jerusilium, but so could a convosation program capable of passing the turing test. Neither is really any more human than the other.
If we don't nerf the Turing-test like it was for Eliza the program that would pass it would be something very interesting. The question is where the line is between faking being an intelligent life form and being an intelligent life form.
zombieneighbours said:
Marines by comparison have rich lives dedicated to honour, glory and faith. Each chapter has a rich culture all its own. every marine has friendships and pacts of brotherhood with their fellow marines, they have student mentor relationships, both with those that taught them, and those they teach, they have legands, myths and secrets. Each chapter has a list of rivalries with the other chapter, hated enemies from battles of years go bye.
Marines feel, and do so passionately. Officio Assassinorum temple assassins put simply put, don't.
Playing a Death Watch marine, is like playing an L5R samuria in power armour, or beowulf with a bolt gun.
Playing a temple assassin is like playing the termonator.
I would agree if we would talk about the Eversor or the Culexus. However, Callidus and Vindicare seem to have more intelligence left as those too, and I think it would be interesting seeing them interact with the Marines.
Stipendium peccati mors est. Personal Motto of Deathwatch Champion Raziel, Black Shield.
Mjoellnir said:
Evil question: If she can fake to be everything perfectly, does it really matter that she fakes it?
Let me turn that question around slightly. Is a C'tan built necron construct, capable of outwardly appearing and behaving as a human, but incapable of actually feeling, a suitable as a player character in a core themes, mood and assumption, dark heresy?
Mjoellnir said:
If we don't nerf the Turing-test like it was for Eliza the program that would pass it would be something very interesting. The question is where the line is between faking being an intelligent life form and being an intelligent life form.
Still wouldn't be human though, would it.
Mjoellnir said:
I would agree if we would talk about the Eversor or the Culexus. However, Callidus and Vindicare seem to have more intelligence left as those too, and I think it would be interesting seeing them interact with the Marines.
It isn't a matter of Intelligence. Orks and Necrons are sentient, but they are not suitable as player characters in a game about corruption of the soul by unhallowed truths and the unravelling of the mind to the true nature of universe. Temple assassins are biologiocal machines, no more human than servitors. They have a single purpose, they will go to any lengths to achieve it, without moral concern, in the face of unspeakable horror. One might as well play a wasp given human form as a Callidus assassin. Ofcause, this is my view, but i don't see anything even remotely human in the idea of a man laying absolutely still for a weak on his side on a half foot ledge, covered in a cameoline tarp. Not eating, not sleeping, not drinking, not blinking, with his rifle ready to fire, weighting for the moment that he may kill both the planetary govoner and his wife in a single shot, within a target area the size of door way, half a mile away, then once it is done, getting up, walking away and never thinking of it again. This is not the makings of a good player character, it is the making of a plot device.
Death Watch: It's like Beowulf with boltguns
zombieneighbours said:
Let me turn that question around slightly. Is a C'tan built necron construct, capable of outwardly appearing and behaving as a human, but incapable of actually feeling, a suitable as a player character in a core themes, mood and assumption, dark heresy?
Depends. It's a nice contrast to the other characters. Kinda like Data in the evil mirror universe.
zombieneighbours said:
Still wouldn't be human though, would it.
Humanity is overrated.
zombieneighbours said:
It isn't a matter of Intelligence. Orks and Necrons are sentient, but they are not suitable as player characters in a game about corruption of the soul by unhallowed truths and the unravelling of the mind to the true nature of universe.
It's a matter of style. Orkze aren't interested in anything except bashing heads, and Necrons don't have anything left to corrupt.
zombieneighbours said:
Temple assassins are biologiocal machines, no more human than servitors.
Not quite, servitors have no creativity, something that's vital for assassins since the situation can change for them pretty quickly.
zombieneighbours said:
They have a single purpose, they will go to any lengths to achieve it, without moral concern, in the face of unspeakable horror. One might as well play a wasp given human form as a Callidus assassin. Ofcause, this is my view, but i don't see anything even remotely human in the idea of a man laying absolutely still for a weak on his side on a half foot ledge, covered in a cameoline tarp. Not eating, not sleeping, not drinking, not blinking, with his rifle ready to fire, weighting for the moment that he may kill both the planetary govoner and his wife in a single shot, within a target area the size of door way, half a mile away, then once it is done, getting up, walking away and never thinking of it again. This is not the makings of a good player character, it is the making of a plot device.
A lot of what you are saying sounds again like a Space Marine (even though not a perfect one, what was the name of the chapter that bombarded a refugee camp that was attacked by Orkz?) A Callidus or Vindicare is intelligent, and if deployed together with a bunch of Deathwatch Marines will have to communicate with them. How will that go? Will she give information in a monotone voice and keep silent the rest of the time when approached with things that are not vital for the mission like the computer you think she is? Or will she use her skills at mimicking people to adapt to the talking style of the Marines and try to act as one of them in the team? Will it change over time? If deployed long-term together with them away from the temple (which would need a good explanation) will she develop a personality? A good player character doesn't need to be human as long as his lack of humanity is interesting.
Stipendium peccati mors est. Personal Motto of Deathwatch Champion Raziel, Black Shield.
zombieneighbours said:
Argh...No, not a temple assassin!!!!! *Wails in horror.*
Temple assassins are the single least player suitible human I can think of in the entire game. They are single purpose killers, with more in common with biological machines and actual people.
Without Signature
I'll throw a little promethium on the fire and point out that woman can become Chaos Space Marines in fluff (see Storm of Iron).
Non Nobis Domine Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium
If the tanks succeed, then victory follows.
Heinz Guderian
BaronIveagh said:
I'll throw a little promethium on the fire and point out that woman can become Chaos Space Marines in fluff (see Storm of Iron).
Spoiler below
She just got herself possessed by a daemon that was inhabiting an Iron Warriors Armor. The daemon used her flesh as a host vessel, she never became a CSM, just a daemon host that happened to wear the CSM armor.
In otherwords, we claim that it wasn't really space marine armor, but made of handwavium that made her as deadly, or more so, then a space marine. I like that. Has a nice ring of 'if we argue it in circles long enough it will go away.).
Ok, here's one for you then: 21st Founding had biological abnormalities growing from it's second, evil, head. Technically, I suppose they'ed be transgendered, if you want ot be strictly literal, but there's no reason that a chapter could not have 'turns female' as a defect. (The fluff states that there were dozens of bizzare oddities among the chapters of this founding, most of which make transgender seem downright normal, the worst of which having been purged by the inquisition)
I'll go one further: as I recall, the admech do not descriminate between men and women as incubators when creating suffecient geneseed to create a new chapter at the behest of the high lords of terra. If this is indeed fact, would this not mean then that the whole basis for the argument of men only is flawed?
Non Nobis Domine Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium
If the tanks succeed, then victory follows.
Heinz Guderian
BaronIveagh said:
In otherwords, we claim that it wasn't really space marine armor, but made of handwavium that made her as deadly, or more so, then a space marine. I like that. Has a nice ring of 'if we argue it in circles long enough it will go away.).
1. A Human who puts on Astartes Armor is not a Space Marine, male or female.
2. A Daemon who inhabits a human then puts on Astartes armor isn't a space marine, even though the Daemon Host now has the armor of a space marine.
3. A Space Marine not wearing armor is still a Space Marine.
My point is that she was never a CSM, just a Daemon Host in some armor. The handwavium you speak of would be the whole Daemon Host thing. A Daemon Host has a very great potential to be much more than a match for a group of space marines. That would be why they have the whole Grey Knights chapter of Daemon hunting specialist.
How does who or what incubates geneseed mater? As I recall the storage of the geneseed was just large vats of bits floating in a nutrient fluid.
ItsUncertainWho said:
BaronIveagh said:
In otherwords, we claim that it wasn't really space marine armor, but made of handwavium that made her as deadly, or more so, then a space marine. I like that. Has a nice ring of 'if we argue it in circles long enough it will go away.).
1. A Human who puts on Astartes Armor is not a Space Marine, male or female.
2. A Daemon who inhabits a human then puts on Astartes armor isn't a space marine, even though the Daemon Host now has the armor of a space marine.
3. A Space Marine not wearing armor is still a Space Marine.
My point is that she was never a CSM, just a Daemon Host in some armor. The handwavium you speak of would be the whole Daemon Host thing. A Daemon Host has a very great potential to be much more than a match for a group of space marines. That would be why they have the whole Grey Knights chapter of Daemon hunting specialist.
How does who or what incubates geneseed mater? As I recall the storage of the geneseed was just large vats of bits floating in a nutrient fluid.
1) No one can put on and use astartes armor without the black carapace implant. It will not work, as the controls are all done via this implant. It is very clearly not the pressure responsive type of power armor and this distinction is frequently made.
2) See point 1
3) Depends on your edition. In some earlier ones, a space marine not wearing power armor was a dead space marine.
Storage, yes, however, to produce it in the quantities required for founding a new space marine chapter, they use people in forced comas to grow the required organs, since each one produces two progenoids. However, the progenoid requires all the implants to be grown to fully mature. Since they don't distinguish between men and women in this process, it would imply that there's no biological reason there cannot be female space marines.
Non Nobis Domine Sed Nomine Tua Da Na Glorium
If the tanks succeed, then victory follows.
Heinz Guderian
I found a way around the Vindicare in my group. He can't just sit back and shoot at targets without fear of reprisal. I'm using a Tau mercenary sniper as his foil.
Think "Enemy at the Gates" but with no romance and lots more shooting.
+++It is better to die for something than to live for nothing+++
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