I am tired of numerous threads and discussions about how this game has an insurmountable barrier to entry.

Compare the costs of buying boosters and such to get an affordable deck in MtG. 4 sets of 3+ booster boxes (12 times 100 = 1200) vs no more than 60 expansion packs (60 times 15 = 900)… and when you buy AGoT packs you get to play with them legally in tournaments forever!

Stop the hype and help spread the word. Shout down mathematical innaccuracies when you see them! Support LCG with knowledge!!

vermillian said:

burden of knowledge > burden of finances.

Wrote post, deleted, rewrote in concise form.

1. Everyone who plays Standard seriously knows that you never, never, never, never, never get cards by opening boosters.

2. When Standard rotates, people usually sell cards and buy new ones. They lose value, but if done right, you don't lose too much.

3. Average cost of Pro level deck is about 700 bucks. The one that won latest Pro Tour $40K tourney costed 650.

4. When we speak about Pro level, we speak about tournaments that (as above) give large prizes and have 500-1500 people.

5. If you play at your local FNMs with about 20 people per tourney (that's more or less a lower limit on number of people at FNM tourney), you can win with much-much cheaper decks (I won't be surprised if one can show up with 100 bucks deck and just win)

PS. Flame war it is. :-P

Well the Magic angle has been done to death, and it is pretty cheap and less hassle to play AGOT. You might not make your money back, but then again you don't have to sell your collection piece by piece every few years in an attempt to recoup the considerable costs. I just wish it would go away because most people here don't play Magic anymore, or with any level of seriousness so its guess work at best. What we do know, cost aside is how AGOT works.

Lets compare something we know a bit better; organized play. When a person buys Magic cards, he learns that there are multiple tournament  tiers, and a large player base, convention support and attrative prizes for all levels of play. So in that regard, Magic wins. AGOT is light years behind this, but it is also much more affordable and casual (not a bad thing always).

So I guess you could ask this question: assuming you like both games equally, would you rather spend more money with Magic or AGOT? Maybe the answer depends on how much you like competitive play. Also, its important to remember these are AGOT boards, so I'm guessing most of us pick AGOT because we enjoy the game more, not just the money aspect.

I'm really interested in a new disscussion: new LCG(s) vs AGOT. That is way more interesting to talk about considering both new LCGs have way more regional events than AGOT.

vermillian said:

And of course the opposite of this…

I am tired of numerous threads and discussions about how this game is affordable to start playing.

If two people simply want to play with a bunch of cards from the newest sets, they can't simply go buy the whole cycle and have a playable deck. They can't simply buy the cycle's "starter decks". They have to buy a core set, maybe 2 or three, or an expansion pack first, then the cycle.

Never mind the question, "Are the expansion packs balanced against each other?" If I buy the Stark expansion and put together it's suggested deck and play it against the Lannister suggested deck what will happen? I'm fairly confident the Magic starter decks are roughly balanced. Which is the most likely to give a random new player a positive experience for the least amount of money?

Also, compare the costs of buying 60 expansion packs ($900) to the cost of buying 3 for Netrunner ($45). Why would you choose AGoT?

Then you forgot the fact that I can buy an out of box, fun, thematic starter deck for Magic for $10 - $15 and can't come close to that with AGoT.

If you want this game to make sense to random guy who wants to play a new game, you should be getting on the high cost of entry bandwagon. If you aren't, then you're likely just making it worse.

This argument has nothing to do with the validity of the game. Whether or not the game is excellent, this business model is uncompetitive. This game is not operating under a model that will allow it to sustain growth. That is why there are threads about the state of this game's business model. It simply will not do anything to expand the community without an incredible amount of help from the community. Even then, why would a random player start playing it? Why do I want to waste my time on a game that is treading water?

I've already answered that question for myself. I don't. I haven't bought a new pack in six months at least (probably more), but I have enough interest in the game to try and drive it forward when I have down time.

The biggest barrier to entry is still the card distribution in the Core and the need to buy 2-3 of them.  Not that theres an easy fix for that, but I think its hard to convince new players to start buying when you have to recommend they start off with multiple Cores and multiple House expansions.

BBSB12 said:

1. Given, but it's still an expensive game when you take into account sometimes needing to pay $60x4 for a playset of one card that makes your deck work.

2. Also true… at least on the first part. When you take that MR card you paid $240 to have 4 of and go to unload it when the set cycles out… as everyone else is also trying to do… you're usually lucky to get back $60 for it (and for some cards, that's being generous)

3. Wow. So they've gone down… but listen to what that means… you're paying $650-$700 for the cards to make one deck, whereas in AGoT, for about $200 more, you can have every single card in print (which is soon to include the first cycle again).

4. Yes, but that means you have up to 1500 people that paid $500+ for their deck, plus travel, plus usually a fairly high entry fee… and people wonder why WotC can afford to give out large prizes at these events…

5. But that's still $100 for one deck… in my meta, most people build 2 or more highly competitive decks for under $80. (one core, one deluxe, a house pack from a cycle, and a single or 2).

I will somewhat agree with mdc273 that, for players that haven't already been playing since the early LCG days, it can be daunting to shell out enough money all at once to get every card. It is certainly easier to get into A:NR or SW:LCG at this point, because they've each released a core and A:NR only has 3 data packs out so far, where SW is still on the ground floor with none till March.

Also, for casual card gamers, it's also certainly easier to get a couple of starter decks for MtG at $15 a pop, but for competitive play, this isn't really an option (event decks, released later in the cycle are better for FNM than starters, but still not pro level).

Here's the easy reasons why people should play AGoT over Netrunner or Star Wars.

1) much better mechanics for a more strategic game

2) if people think AGoT feels stale, keep in mind we've had a big lull in product. A much smaller cardpool will be much more stale. With Star Wars, the fact that deckbuilding is limited to 10 choices means there won't even be those slight variations of decks within an arhetype. They will all be identical. It's much easier to min/max a deck with 10 chunks of 5 cards from a limited pool compared to 60 individual card choices.

3) (perhaps the biggest reason to play AGoT) the community. The AGoT community is an excellent gaming community. Don't have $900 to shell out at once to buy a complete playset of every card in print? That's fine. Most people don't and it isn't required. Start with a couple core sets, a house expansion, and some key packs then slowly build your collection. In the meantime, you can proxy for casual play. When it comes tournament time, you'll likely find someone willing to loan you a few cards that you don't yet have.

Except for those who were around for the transition to the LCG, I'm sure many of us started playing without complete playsets. If we did it, why can't current new players do the same and start playing with what their budget allows?

HoyaLawya said:

+1

I've drooled over A:R and SW along with the rest of the Cult of the New, until I started reading more about how janky they are. A:R sounds better than SW, I admit, with how swingy and fundamentally flawed it is on a mechanical level. A:R seems more luck based, like I'm sitting around playing "Where's the poison?" with Vinzini. "Where's the agenda? If I knew that you knew that I knew it was a bluff, would I actually put down an agenda or a trap?" It's much more of a player-driven game than a card game to me at that point, driven by play mistakes, luck, and how good you are at reading cues. AGoT is more mechanically sound, and more tactically oriented, and makes it a much better game.

I really feel like some sort of rotation or cardpool restriction has to be in the works, with as much as it's been brought up in past threads. Almost every time that's happened on the boards, FFG has done something. Maybe it will be a new tournament format, like "standard" and "legacy" or whatever.

LOVE this thread!

HoyaLawya said:

And the counter to this…

1) Much better mechanics don't mean squat when you can't get a player to play because everything else looks like they get more bang for their buck.

2) If a game feels stale, it's probably stale. Why would anyone start a game where there are constant delays and lots of disorganization? (Just look at the Regionals mess, FAQ infrequency, and rules forum)

3) Don't know anyone with cards besides you? You're SoL. Don't play anywhere near an existing meta? You're SoL.

Oh and saying you should play AGoT over Netrunner is 100% subjective. I, for one, would suggest anyone play Netrunner over AGoT. The current state of AGoT is brokeness followed by more brokeness and then an hour later someone loses. It's not particularly exciting. Also, Netrunner was designed by the most prolific card game designer there is. Richard Garfield literally created the CCG genre. You can't tell me there's any more ringing of an endorsement than to play a game designed by the creator of the genre that was literally designed to play 100% the opposite way Magic does. The games are literally two sides of the same coin and both are spectacular.

Why can't current players do the same? Because they don't want to! I don't want to play AGoT, therefore I don't. Why would I want to start something I don't want to start?

I want to love AGoT. The game system is pretty much brilliant. The card pool is TRASH to me.

Could not agree more, i have probably only spent (card wise) 250-300 dollars, i have a 3 person play group and we all just picked a house, i'm martel, i could have easily spent that much on a single expansion of WoW or magic, and i did back in the day, this format and structure of LCG is so much more preferable to hemorrhaging money for cards that were obsolete in 3-5 months, keep up the good work FFG. Although you guys could use a better template to the game js ; )

Could not agree more, i have probably only spent (card wise) 250-300 dollars, i have a 3 person play group and we all just picked a house, i'm martel, i could have easily spent that much on a single expansion of WoW or magic, and i did back in the day, this format and structure of LCG is so much more preferable to hemorrhaging money for cards that were obsolete in 3-5 months, keep up the good work FFG. Although you guys could use a better template to the game js ; )

I like what Team Covenant is doing. Taking expansions and breaking them down house specificic and also selling singles. Give us some options to work with especially if you're new to the game.

Let's go 10 years down the road with LCG when the card pool is 3 times what it is now. Let's talk worst case scenario. I find out what a competitive deck is, i go get all the packs with those cards. Let's say you had to buy 1 expansion for 60 different cards. You're looking at close to 1000 bucks. That will never happen because out of 60 card deck a lot of those cards are duplicates. Which means realistically you only have to get let's say 30 expansions tops. that's roughly 500 bucks. I just finished tracking down all the cards for John Bruno's world winning deck. Around $500. That includes 3 cores sets and 4 deluxe expansions which most casual gaming groups will  go and get anyway. You now have a base of cards for  for all 6 houses. Next go and track down 20 espansion packs( whcih is very frustrating. C'mon FFG. I'm here in Nova Scotia Cananda. [we have a tons of players here by the way. just bloody expensive to travel if you want to enter a tourney. Here' crossing our fingers for a regional this year.] I don't know if it's distributors or FFg. I need some older packs! Help me out here!

   So now that you have your deck ready, go enter the regionals and win. then go to worlds and win that too. Wait. You're not Bruno. So you need some time to improve on your driving skills! Now that you have an awesome deck you can try to get some money for them and start all over next year. Wait a minute. This isn't Magic. You don't have too.! Keep those cards in a safe place and slowly build your collection. If you don't have some cards that you want, just revise it a bit.

 If you're a rookie Formula one racer you are not going to be the best driver off the bat. You lack the experience. And you don't start off with the best car in the field. That takes time and better sponsors. Why do people new to a game expect to be competitive and complain about the initial expenses? Do you know how much money it is to raise a child.  Not including college. $20,000. That's rediculous . How much money do you spend on groceries in a year. My family $8,000. Man, i'm not eating ever again. That's crazy!  Bottom line. Have fun and collect as you go!

I've been playing casual, slowly collecting, reading the books. Now i'm at a point where my collection allows me to be competitve. Just go with it. Do your best and have fun. We tone it down for newer guys. I'll play straight out of 1 core set and still have fun! I love the books. I love this game.

Side note: Any of you hear of a game called Bowl Bound. It's a football tabletop with charts and dice. This idea was created over 30 years ago by a couple college students. They approached a professor, who was a Math Wiz, to create a game based on actual football stats. This game in my opinion took more of a genious to come up with  than Magic. I like the game, but i love thrones better. I love the complicated nature of the game, the FAQ's( without K-tom we'd sill be in the dark) the art, the dealmaking. EVerything!. For anyone to call this game stale? Well that's cool. It also sucks if there's no other gamers in your area

I found this game online. I was searching for a strategy card based game that wasn't magic. I came across AGOT. Found out there was books too. Sweet! I sent away for it and told my friend to come check this new game i got. Both really excited about it from 1st game on. WE shared the expenses for our gaming group. Mostly casual.There was a time when we'd play every day into early morning!  Gamers came and went. WE started talking to local game stores. WE told them we want to promote thrones on a regular basis, will you help us out? I'm getting sick of seeing Friday Night Magic monopolizing gaming time and space at all the stores( something to be learned from Magic Marketing though!). " Sure" they said and we've been having AgOT every Monday since. 

MInd you it was slow going. First month and half it was just me showing up  to demo to no one. I advertised on the store's facebook page, told everyone i met every monday nights down there. Tonns of people love the books or show, said they'd love to play the game. At our Hal-con the store owners told some Navy guys about AGOT that started up. Now they game with us. In last 2 months there have been 5 new gamers from monday night Thrones. Got in touch with someone who lived couple towns away. He started an LCG hub for our province. 25 members right now in 6 months! Just held our first tourney and had 8 players, only 8 because there was a snow storm. Found out there is a new league that started in our neighbouring province, N.B. In total there's around 20 thrones players in these 2 provinces. That's not to mention every second person who comes into the shops play the game casually. It's growing really well here especially considering the population. We have a meetup site where i promote gaming nights and tourneys. New faces from that as well. . WE're in the process of help organizing LCG event for our next Hal-COn. DEmo's banners, sponsors prizes, hopefully tournaments. I'm Psyched! If we get the regionals here, that would be awesome for promoting the game

  What am i saying? If you love the game and you're lacking the players, do your own promoting. YOu'd be surprised.            CHEERS!

snaggrriss said:

Look, I'll be honest. I was you at one point. I have done similar things to what you've done. You're probably still in the phase where it doesn't feel futile. There will be an inflection point, though. And that inflection point will either make what you're doing seem incredibly worthwhile or make it seem futile. The trend right now will be towards futile. AGoT is a dying game, community wise, without people like you and there simply are not enough people like you for AGoT in contrast to the number of people like you for Netrunner, Magic, and any number of other highly successful, high visibility games. The WoW card game is probably more successful than AGoT.

Everyone is making the argument for why people should stick to LCGs, but I haven't heard one valid argument for AGoT specifically vs. a generic LCG game (Netrunner is the real beast and will probably outsell AGoT in perpetuity).

If you love AGoT, more power to you. I really don't care. I'm making no argument against enjoying AGoT. I am saying this game is not competitive with a similar card game coming out of its own company. I would be willing to bet that Netrunner sales are at least twice as much as AGoT. I would be very curious to take a poll of everyone who has played both games and see who prefers what. Of the 4 AGoT players in our meta who tried Netrunner when it came out, 2 have quit AGoT (including myself) and 2 have kept playing AGoT.

I am saying that there is no way in hell I would ever recommend AGoT to a friend of mine in its current state. There is literally no reason for me to do so. The game has no economic benefit over Netrunner. The game has an almost non-existent meta in my area (same 4 - 6 people for years now). The card pool is miserably unfun. I rarely feel like I could have played better and won a game of AGoT. The Netrunner community has about 16 - 20 regulars (5 times the AGoT community). The Netrunner community has regular tournaments. It has support from the local FLGS. There are good people in the Netrunner community, just like in the AGoT community. Most importantly, every game of Netrunner I feel like I could have played better and improved my chances of winning. I enjoy the actual playing of the game. That is something I didn't get from AGoT even in the last year I was actually playing it. I would've gladly brought Glory to Rome, Innovation, hell even Raw Deal out with me, but they loved AGoT and so I played it.

The bottom line is that if this game maintains the status quo it seems likely to go the way of Vampire with a little more company support. There will always be a community that loves it, but that will pretty much be all there is. The public eye has moved on and this game's current state won't get the public eye back.

It is growing in our area, I actually think with the TV show becoming more popular than ever there will actually be a boon in player expansion (will they all stay..no, but lots will)

I do agree however that without a set cycle or rotation of current legal meta, newer players will always be behind the 8 ball to catch up to card pools by players that have been around since the start. But that is not the case yet…well at least not here