Martin_fr said:

Not that I don't believe you re: the CCGs without globals, I do. I just can't come up with any off the top of my head, can you help my memory for discussions sake?

I'm not in favor with changing card text unless it is an interpretation issue, if a card is overpowered then it should probably just go and a toned down version released in the next chapter of cards thus avoiding carrying around a list of ammendments to games.

- dut

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Regarding the topic at hand...

Banning for anything less than a card that violates the spirit of the game, should be avoided. A card that is too efficient as to become detrimental to the game, be it cards that are currently available or those which cannot be created because of this, would qualify. Errata is a better way to handle this when it is really just a tweak the card needs, say putting a limit on an effect or making it order only or other such thing.

Most competitive CCGs have a rotation policy, as much based on classic card availability as it is on restriction of design space. LCG's do not have the former problem in any meaningful way. I suspect that instead of rotatin entire BAttle Pack cycles they may create a banned list to remove specific cards from the environment as the game progresses. I think this would be an infinitely better way of solving the problem than to suddenly remove a large chunk of the card base, though some people will still complain mostly because it will likely target their favorite killer cards.

There is no reason to limit Troll Vomit. If you keep losing games because of this card you are overextending or not properly building your deck. If your deck has support cards which you are playing to supplement your units in your Quest and Kingdom Zones o maintain a more predictable level of draw and resources, Troll Vomit has a much reduced effect. If you are not retaining a few cheap units in your hand in case your Destruction foe plays a Troll Vomit then you simply misplayed. Not fundamentally different than Judgment of Verena taking out your units because you didn't bother to develop your zones. This is the game. Ignore these cards if you want to when you build and play, but don't complain about losing because of those choices.

"I am the Prince of Dorne. Men seek my favor."

A +1 to the discussion of 'playing around a card'. For a while I was upset about this concept. Wrath of God in MtG for instance, Yoga Mastery in UFS, Put to the Sword in AGoT (game defining in the first sets!). These things kinda annoy you at first, but then you remember again what game you're playing. A TCG (or LCG) whose base rules are set up to be a template, and whose rules are utterly destroyed by every new card that is printed.

The way to play the game is DEFINED BY what other cards exist in the game. To ignore those, is to ignore the fact that you can collect a pool during your untap phase if you have the Edge (In Vampire the Eternal Struggle) for instance.

There are no cards that need a ban. There are some, that seem to be overpowered, but there is a solution to everything:

Waaagh!, Spider Riders and other beatsticks: Master Rune of Valaya, cards that move units and Counterstrikers are a solution here.

Bloodthirster/Rip dere 'eads off combo: Unit movers, Master Rune of Valaya, attack preventers etc.

Troll Vomit and Judgment of Verena: don't play all your units on the table

massive card draw: Infiltrate and the Chaos quest

I could go on and on about powerful combos and solutions. The point is that gamebreaker combos do exist, but there is always a solution to them. You cannot cover everything with one deck, but you can prepare for a great range of power cards.

At this point there is nothing that screams "Ban me, I am too powerful!" since every race has its powerful combos and strategies. The crucial thing in this game is to be fast and prepared. If your deck is slow, you deserve to lose. Quite simple. Also don't bother too much about losing a zone, concentrate on the remaining two. ;-)

OK I want this to be clear...

Solutions should always be in TYPES of cards one could put in your deck, or a well played out strategy.

It is not, and SHOULD not ever be "Oh well if you have this ONE card in your hand against this one player that might be playing that kind of deck, then you'll be fine...". No sir. Such solutions are too narrow and corner case. At the moment I don't think warhammer invasion has such... requirements in meta gaming. Hopefully it never will.

However it might for a time. I remember in UFS Yoga Mastery was only dealable by few conditions 1.) Ring Veteran 2.) Killing them without Enhances (which Yoga Mastery canceled). However even in the next set, new strategies formes...

W:I may have momentary problems for a battle pack or two. That's about all I suspect.

Sir Blackadder said:

Once BT is out there, can't cancel damage. MRoV uses the word "cancel", so I guess it won't work anymore (even though it cancels assigned damage, doesn't cancel like Toughness).

You're right. But still, I think that you got the message, that there are solutions to the "problem cards" in the game. You could as well corrupt the Bloodthirster, so I gave you another solution.

vermillian said:

I gave examples that instantly came to mind. I am sure that there are far more ways to counter the "tough guys". You have to keep in mind that if you play Empire, for example, you cannot play an Orc winning tactic. If you focus on your strength (in this case: control), you can always beat your opponent.

What does an Orc player do, who has plenty of cheap units on the table but can't get a sufficient supply on his hand after turn 2?

This is an evergreen discussion where people see cards they can't handle because they don't see the possibilities. Of course, Orcs look daunting with all their cheap units and Skaven support, but after all they follow a straight forward strategy: KILL QUICKLY! If you can stall them, you can win.

For MtG we have far more powerful cards and card combinations in the standard format tournaments at the moment.

So I guess the reason why players complain about broken cards is that they are new to the world of living/collectible card games. I can only tell the people who demand bans: you don't know what you're asking for! Once we start banning cards, demands for further bans will skyrocket. Rather try to analyze the cards and come up with a solution yourself.

dutpotd said:

Too bad I can't find out how to send PM. So, sorry to anyone about the out of topic, but here are a few CCGs without global effects : NetRunner, Middle-earth:CCG, Doomtown, and Stargate. Fortunately, none of these games are still running, so your statement could be considered correct in some ways.

IIRC, There's also L5R, but I didn't play much that one, so I may be wrong.

End of the out of topic.

Martin_fr said:

No globals in Meccg? Environments, many Long-Events and Perm-Events.

the discussion was about a global reset button. Global blow up like Troll Vomit in Warhammer Invasion.

Vampire tthe Eterernal Struggle doesn't have one either. Well, not for its main 'creature' type in the game. It has a global make everything suck and then it'll blow up, but its so impossible to play that i wouldn't consider it of this type.

I don't think a BAN list will be necessary and personally see one for a card game as a major turn off from playing it.

Also with the upcoming changes to the LCG formats even the some what limited mr. suitcase problem will be non existent in all future expansions. Yes that wil mean to get the current stuff at 3 of you need to buy a few more packs than you will in the future, but thats okay. I am buying two a month currently of all AGOT and WI packs and my friend buys one and we trade to get 3 of's for any current cards. In the future won't be an issue at all.

Something that has not come up with. (BTW, I love this game, see some potenialy powerfull cards, but nothing that IMO should be banned, just to state my camp)

When you ban a card, in short order, often a new card pops up as the "killer card". Resetting the bar, so that cries for a new and updated "ban" list. OR future expansions create a "need" for the banned card to make an appearence again!

For those that also play Warhammer fantasy, this comes up a lot. Becuase GW does a poor job of costing units, many tournments have a "comp" or composition system, where organizers my ban or restrict units, or unit sizes, of some of the more powerfull stuff. Often its not an outright ban, but a scoring penalty for taking overpowered things.

What ends up happenign is exactly as I discribe.  Some TO do not like heavy magic, and so in there "comp" system, the punish heavy magic and reward magic deffence in there comp system. What this has the effect of doing, is simply changing what the power combos and superior winning armies are.  In current WFB Demons are considered so overpowered, that some small tournements do ban them. But then Vampires and Dark elves become the new power armies.

So far IMO there are no cards that desevre a ban, some very strong cards, but they are so often situational. The Empire destuction cards is pretty bad ass, but it many punishes players that fail to develope there zones.  I like this card in play, cause the mear presence of this card, makes it important for say an orc or chaos player invest to keep there card draw high, so they are not suffering for card count in there attempt for an early rush.  Troll vomit punishes decks that relie on units too much. I had a player use troll vomit recently, and it cost THEM the game, cause I had 5 resorce draw and 2 card draw remaining when he lost everything!  He was behind and in trouble so needed to set the reset butten and hope to turn it arround, so it was a good play, but I think I make my point. I find wagggh can be an ungly omne if there are a horde of cheap units about. Last time I saw a set up that looked like a waagj ready to happen, I abondend my battlefield, and split my deffence between the quest and Kingdom, and attemped to hold out those zones. It came very very close to working as the orcs 7 card draw woudl have killed him, and I only lost cause I got a very unlucky card darw with no units.

The game is not yet ready for a ban list IMO.

Abandoned Mine and Greatswords need to be banned, if only to stop the bickering and forum tension that they've accrued.

HAHAHAHAH Fiendfish!!!
i like the way u think mate