This is what I find most annoying and frustrating about the game right now. There are all these cards that are not strong enough to be restricted but these slightly imbalanced cards are impacting the game in a strong way. Most changes can be as small as 1 more loyalty or 1 less HP.
Cards comparable to Judgement of Verena and Troll Vomit would now be printed with three loyalty cost instead of two. Master Rune of Valaya, Rip Dere ‘eads Off and perhaps even My Life for the Hold should also cost more loyalty.
Unit cards which should cost more loyalty are Lobber Crew, Sor of Tz and Shades. Some units need a tweak as small as 1 less HP - Vile Sorceress, Seasoned Corsair, Clan Moulder's Elite and Wight Lord.
Its kind of getting to the point that you can almost always tell which unit a race will be playing in its deck. DE automatically means Shades and often Seasoned Corsair too. Dwarves automatically mean Slayers of KK and Cannon Crew. Lobber Crew is better than Sacrifice to Khaine.

I am not sure what should be done about these - Derricksburg Forge, Church of Sigmar and Slave Pen. These support cards are strong for their cost. It seems that support cards are making or breaking races.
I strongly dislike Rodrik’s Raiders because as VitaminT said it gives a strong support removal to a race that does not focus on removal. I was planning on posting a thread on this later. Other cards which might need outright errata are Dwarf Cannon Crew (support cost 1 instead of 2?), Dwarf Ranger (no Scout), Slayers of Karak Kadrin and especially Iron Discipline which is nowhere comparable to more recent cards (cheap and can target any unit).

It seems like most such cards come from the earlier sets although even the most recent ones have some ridiculous cards. I love it that Chaos got a boost as SoT but it costs just 1 loyalty? Too splashable - it boosted more than Chaos. The problem with cards with too low a loyalty cost is that in competitive play you are more likely to see multi race cards as players just take only the strongest cards from each race to build their decks. Even more recent and more balanced cards cannot replace those cards.
Orcs and Empire are the strongest races now and so instead of getting power creep on other races I would prefer to have FFG focus on some Empire nerf in the faq and anti-rush in future cards. I believe that the newer cards have more reasonable costs for what they do.
 

Restricting Derricksburg Forge, it's a good start for Empire/Order players, so I wouldn't mind if it is restricted.

Verena : I've already said my disagreement of restricting resets before. Still the same.

Rodrik : It's powerful. I see that Order is better in blasting supports, Destruction is better in blasting units, so Rodrik follows the same way, just like Sorcerer of Tzeentch follows the unit-blasting way. They cost the same, but SoT keeps blasting all the way, so restricting one means restricting the other. And I disagree with restricting them.

My two cents about Judgement of Verena. Please FFG do something with this card. Maybe this card isn't overpowered, but definitly is very strong and make meta very dull. Almost all empire decks on tourneys have this card on board. All decks are made to counter Verena, or you need to spam developments and cross your fingers that your opponen don't have Long Winter and Will of Electors to punish you either way.

The main problem with JoV is that this is the only card in game that can reset opponent to zero, giving too easy win to empire decks. Killing units isn't bad (Troll Vomit is fine, Flames of Phoenix is fine too), but destroying support cards maki this card very annoying and game changing. We all learned that economy is main issue in WHI. Verena definitly is very strong in it's current form. Maybe change it so it only destroys units? It will be comparable in power to Troll Vomit and Flames of Phoenix. We have card like Manaan Take You! with is uselles compared to Verena at the moment, but could be very strong if Verena will be changed in some way. I think restriction will not resolve the problem completly.

Second thing, please look at loyality cost of older cards and don't be affraid to do some changes. Also look at cards that have abilities that give some bonuses or can do much in game and try to limit it uses to once per turn in some cases (Garden of Morr for example don't have this limit).

DBCooper, you posted a great, clear and incontestable analisis.

That's the point, as you explained in detail, Empire now is really overpowered, too versatile, too fast in earliest (and decisive) turns.

There are no chances for any other race: derricksburg forge is really strong in your first hand, rodrick is really powerfull standalone and especially in combos(i hate most of all "endless rodrick decks" based on Rodrick, Call for Reserves, Osterknacht Elite, ...).

And Verena?? ...what can be said about this psychologically destructive weapon never said before?? 

I think something should be done... otherwise in next european tournament we seriously risk to have "deep blue" Top ranking", a mono-race final phase... 

Maybe every race should get a version of Derriksburg forge? Or make a neutral version of same card?

Perhaps the same could be done about MIning Tunnels. Make a neutral 3 cost or 4 cost support with the same card effect so that both destruction and ord er can run it. Then perhaps the dwarves can get other good support cards without the fear of dwarves getting too strong.

ColdOne's idea of Verena destroying units only is good.

Also, my list of cards in above post was not exhaustive. There are other cards which cost a bit too less or bit too much for what they do.

No, the real strenght of Derricksburg Forge is not only the cost, but the free loyalty you can have easily.

For example an Empire player during his first turn can play in Kingdom Zone a Derricksburg Forge and a Skink of Sotek (killing some opponent Unit, very useful!) and the next turn he can already play stunning creature like Friedrich Hemmler, because of resouces and bonus loyalty!

A similar card (but neutral) is not the same, because loyalties in the very beginning of the match can be decisive for the final result...

@SEIBO:

You are right - Empire has the best cards, but not the best synergy and cooperation in cards (Verena + Will, or Rodrick + Osterknaht are not the best one's). Empire is easy to play and win for weak and medicore players, but when it gots to high-level games you can find many constraints that are between cards (Rodrick messes up with Verena).

At the moments Empire is the best controling fraction, but in field of rush or combo its not very efficient - with small exception of Van Klumpf, but they are double edged sword, easy to kill and works best when you have full board control (it really doesnt mater if you kill  them via Van Klumps or Hemmler).

Try playing with good Chaos, Dwarf or Orc decks and you will see that empire can be easily stopped.

As for DErrickburg Forge - it should be restricted as it has the same power level as Minig Tunnels and is now in every order deck.

BR

Jaszczur

 My wish-restricted-list :

Warpstone Excavation

Innovation

Mining Tunnels

Reclaiming the Fallen

Derricksburg Forge

Offering to Hekarti

Banned : VtHC and Judgement of Verena

PS :  Wilhelm is weaker than Blood dragon knight and Soul stealer is ok.

PS2 : only restricting Verena won't slow it

Jaszczurr said:

I strongly disagree (nothing personal, though :)).

- Empire is NOT for mediocre players. A strong empire deck is based on little sinergies...And a single mistake is a game loss. I see very strong players playin'. The demonstration is (I can bet everything I own) that the win/loss rating is pretty different for the same deck played by 2 different players.

This doesn't mean that the PLAYER is more important than the faction, but that a strong deck is not an "auto-play". 

- Rodrik messes with Verena? Never had this problem. If I hit your QZ, you'll have nothing to destroy with JoV. Considering I can play Rodrik 2 times in turn 3 (one as istant with CfR), you won't drow more than 1 card or get more than 3 when I'll get 6 + 2  cards or 5 + 3 cards or the like...

My turn: Long Winter + Verena on the zone I didn't rodrik-you...Game over.

And even if Rodrik would become a "problem" for Verena, no troubles: it means I wont' focus on Verena to win (as a current empire player never does)...But you still HAVE to develop, unless lettin' me an easy Long Winter.

- What High level games are we talkin' about?  Define "high level" please. I don't know who is the best players, and I don't care...But I see focused and ongoing tournament play: that's "high level" to me. And in that environement, Empire is the strongest faction. Period. 

Then, BELIEVE me: if a player will win a 25+ people tournament with a non-empire deck against reliable opponents with well built decks (let's say, a 65% of competitive decks) I would be VERY happy. 

And even if ORC Rush wins a single tournament in a top 8 with 6-7 empire decks, it's not a good sign. 

DB

DB.Cooper said:

Is that really a problem in Italy - no one can win with non-Empire decks?

Lately in Poland we had some tournaments which were won (and dominated) by empire decks (69 and 32 players). After those tournaments many players have found that we were so focused on empire and its great control and economy but have forgotten that there are other fractions that can be as strong as emp. Now we almost always have Dwarfs or Chaos on top - both of these can easily fight with great empire decks.

I believe that people in general are very lazy - they don't want to seach for some solutions that are harder to find and just want to play with some of the best cards in a game. Does Verena win games - no, Rodric - no. They are just some economical tools that help you dominate a bord.

What can empire do if they have great economy, no damage on capital, opponents don't have anything on the board (like after Verena) - apart for some developements and cards in discard, and their opponent wins the game in thier next turn (not too hard to do) ? :D

BR,

Jaszczur

Can you please post, or send me privately, one of your winning Dwarf decklist? I'm really curious and i really want to know how to evolve this game. :)

Jaszczurr said:

I personally know persons who use to playtest about 30-40 hours per week, almost like a job! 

It's not their case, they are not lazy... they are the best palyetesters i have ever met!
They have found more a few strong archetype, superior to others... but the base is always blue and cards we wish to make restricted are always in.
The only archetype non blue is the rianimator but is always weaker then best empire decks.

Dwaves are nice to play but too weak after the restriction...

I'm really courious, like Big the Fifth, to see a winning dwarf decklist! 

cuttingrage said:

I really think this would be the best move on FFGs part.  Obviousely it couldn't be exactly the same as D Forge but I think every race should have some sort of cheap 1 cost support (in addition to CV) thats meant for playing early in the game like the Forge.  Not only would it put these races starts on par with the insane starts of the Empire, thereby balancing the game, but spreading out resources on numerous purchases early in the game lowers the variance we tend to see in the first couple turns of control heavy games.  FFG should just embrace a game structure where 2 or 3 power can be easily laid down on initial turns (in K and Q zones) if the deckbuildier would like to do so.  It would be good for the game imo.

 all italian players quote BigV and Stormer..