Crappy phone flipped out again. Sorry for the reposts without any comment. But I still fail to see your point here. Are you saying min maxing is good for a person to learn how to play this game? Are you saying that by min maxing you will become a better roleplayer? Are you saying the rules were built by the game designers for min maxers instead of guys who want to portray a deep PC?

Several people on this thread have argued that the system is broken "because you can use raiders to defeat cruisers" for example. that's bs unless you take a groups tactics into consideration and the a group with a raider is supposed to defeat he cruzer using good tactics, right? What's broke about tactics an luck of the dice? I have seen raiders try to exchange shots with a cruiser toe to toe and the raider does not fair well at all. (as it should be)

 As you say "RT is surprisingly robust" when it comes to "brokenness" so I fail to see why we need to examin and define how to make "Broken Builds" (title of thread) in order to be or prove we are deep and skilled gamers.. Unless we want to turn Warhammer 40000 into Munchkin 40000…

Now I've only played in one game that went six months 2x per week and ran a game that went just over a year and a half  2x a week so I don't have much exp with the game compared to folks who have ran six games in two years (or whatever. But I know the rules enough.)

If your saying that as long as your having fun your playing the game right I'd have to agree.  Never contended that. I do still contend that a person cannot define the limitations of a system be bending and exploiting the rules to min max an unrealistic character created in a manner and with intent not in keeping with the motivations of the games designers. That's unfair as hell to the guys that worked like dogs to bring us this game!  Especially in RT where you are a bad ass unless you try really hard to suck. Do you think the writers made the game to reflect the Warhammer setting with deep roleplaying characters in mind? or did they set out to make a system thats min max (munchkin) proof? I think they tried to provide rules to define a setting that has long been familiar to table top gamers and that would reflect the feel of the table top game. what do you think they did? And how do youth ink they hoped we would use/play it?

Bending the concepts and ideas of the game designers is not going to illuminate any problem with the game. But saying I made x and y happened sure could. But only if breaking shit was not the point from the start. Any game I ever played can be maxed into brokenness. Have you played one that could not? Do you think those flaws belong to the system or those broken players? 

DigitalRedneck said:

If you still haven't understood what this thread is for, I do not think that anything I can say will help you.

DigitalRedneck said:

Literally no-one has said that. Just because you use quotation marks doesn't make it so. It just means that you don't know how to use quotation marks.

DigitalRedneck said:

It has nothing to do with proving anything. Not skill, nor being "deep". The only one that is trying to prove something here is you. Nobody else cares. You are the only one that is making an argument out what is literally a non-issue. For everyone else making broken builds is nothing but a mental exercise. For fun. To see what you come up with. As I have already explained.

DigitalRedneck said:

Nobody cares.

DigitalRedneck said:

That's not what I said. You have to literally read some other post in some other thread, likely on some other forum, to reach that conclusion. Seriously, what the hell?

DigitalRedneck said:

You are once again off to a tangent in fairy-land that has nothing to do with anything. I just went over this. It's in less than three posts above you. Goddamn.

DigitalRedneck said:

Well, no shit. Nobody said it would.

DigitalRedneck said:

I believe that's what I said. What is wrong with you? Are you Chris-Chan? Are you getting so hooked up on the words "Broken Builds" that you cannot tell that nobody has said anything about the system being broken whatsoever, but have, in fact, told you repeatedly that it is nothing but a discussion about how to "break" RAW? A RAW that, as I said, we all have to agree on in favour of RAI.. you know what? Fuck it. I think I'm speaking to a wall here.

This is you:


And this is me, giving up:

[quote]Bending the concepts and ideas of the game designers is not going to illuminate any problem with the game.[/quote]

Actually… Yes. It will.

Thought exercises like this actually do serve in learning the rules, especially the combination of such. Inevitably, if you spend enough time excessively reading and using the rules, you will stumble upon the up's and down's in the ruleset.

I cant begin to tell you how many characters I have created in various systems over the years, and what low, low percentage of those I ever played. But it helped learning. A lot.

Of course, thats only a side effect. The main reason for such build is pure, undilated fun.

Fgdsfg said:

From what I see of your posts on this thread, I don't believe that you are trying to help him/her. He/she already apologized, so let it rest. His/her subsequent posts don't appear to be intended to insult, but yours are certainly pushing in that direction.

HappyDaze said:

Thank you. 

Darkheyr said:

I don't remember talking about learning the rules. I did discuss the validity of min max as a method of discovering a systems limitations and why that really does not work. I too make tons of PCs I never use. It's loads of fun. 

HappyDaze said:

I'm sorry, but it is more than a little frustrating to see someone write a substantial response, arguing, when it is very obvious to everyone involved that said person have not bothered to read what they're responding to. Or, have they actually taken the time to read it, have somehow managed to not understand said post despite repeated, excruciating clarity.

It really does become akin to argue with a wall… except the wall actually argues back. Without having heard a thing. It's tableflippable. It is one thing apologizing. It is another thing to apologize.. and then keep arguing without reading (or, without reading comprehension, as it were).

Darkheyr said:

This. It's not rocket science.

Fgdsfg said:

If that's how you really feel, then just realize that when most people see someone arguing with a wall, it's not the wall that appears crazy and makes people uncomfortable…

The original post mentioned limitations of the system. Not a word about just for fun. So how am I misreading the poster there?

 Funny thing is. I did misinterpret the OP when I made my first post. I thought (because they mentioned another forum in the OP) at first glance the OP was having a problem with a person there. So I ranted in the hope it might make them feel better. Later I apologized when I recognized how off the mark I was. I don't regret my statements about the system, but I deeply regret my part in inadvertently wrecking the OPs thread. So I will do what I should have done long ago and stop posting. Once again. Sorry Susan. 

Also, some folks on here (some who have even stated I have reading comprehension issues) are referring to the OP as He. The OPs handle is Susan Brindle. So I'd suspect the OP is a she. 

@Digital Redneck's Original Post: Yeah, of course. I have my players flesh out character concepts and whatnot long before pen hits paper. I also encourage them to spread out their areas of expertise (and personally, my groups have always arrived at the conclusion that it's much better to be a dilettante than a specialist, for reasons of survivability & usefulness (Sure, build world's best sniper. Today's episode is about investigating strange warp phenomena, nobody fires a gun. Would be very helpful to have an extra hand on auspexes though.))

I don't actually expect anyone to show up at the table with a Seneschal that gets 90 to Commerce at rank 1. Actually, I don't expect anyone to show up as a Seneschal at all, because the book doesn't do a very good job of making them look cool (So I'm a… space butler???) even though they definitely have the potential to be crazy cool.

I'm just bored and enjoy doing math in my spare time, and I realized I couldn't see how some of the crazy numbers people said were possible were possible.

Susan. The space butler crack was spot on. And funny. I'll be giggling over that for a while.  It sounds like you run a good game for sure. I got that from your OP. I realized you were asking how to … Because you didn't usually min max. It's the rest of the wires that I crossed. Very badly. I'm sorry again. 

susanbrindle said:

I personally think that Seneschals are really cool.

You can be a Bruce Wayne. You can be Batman. A financial expert by day, world's greatest detective by night. Hell, you start with a Cameleoline Cloak and a Synskin armour.
You can be an expert on Chaos, the note-taker and the educated radical; Dark Adept of the Emperor or Sorcerer of Chaos.
You can be the dark Acquisitionist, the illegal merchant, the arms dealer; you can be Nicolas Cage's Yuri Orlov - Lord of War.
You can be the adventuring archeologist, the master of archeotech and scholastic lores; Indiana Jones - In SPAAAACEEEE.
You're the Merlin to the Rogue Trader Arthur, the Creed of Tactical Genius, and yes, you are potentially the Alfred Pennyworth to Lord Bruce of House Wayne. And this is where you are reminded that it is always the butler did it and that Alfred is a master swordsman, a capable medic, a martial artist, have mastered several fields of engineering and is a combat veteran in the Special Air Service.

I love my current Rogue Trader character of the group I'm in, even if I don't get to play nearly as much as I'd want (once a week, bar screwups), but Seneschal has to be my favourite career. There's so much you can do that I just don't see the others doing. If there's one career I think is starved in Rogue Trader, it's the Missionary. They really could use more meat on their bones when it comes to ending up or acting in the expanse. The way they are presented, I think it easily ends up being Lawful Stupid in the context of Rogue Trader, which is a pity, considering that there's actually a lot to take home when it comes to Imperial Religion, and half a mission fringe cults of the Emperor that would be home at the borders of the galaxy.

susanbrindle said:

One idea I've played with is impossible to realize on Rank 1, bar lucky Acquisition rolls early in the game, but you could always be a mutated Explorator with 4-5 Manipulator Mechadendrites, for that sweet, sweet 140+ Strength.

You know, for ripping open bulkheads or whatever.

Edit: Threw it together.
Frontier World: +5 Strength, +5 Toughness
Unnatural Origin, Contaminated Environs: Brute, +10 Strength, +10 Toughness.
Tainted, Mutant: Hulking, +10 Strength, +5 Wounds.
Darkness, Dark Secret: +6 Strength.
Pride: +3 Toughness.

Assuming a regular starting statline (my group uses 19/18/15/14/11/10/7/6/3) instead of rolling, taking Strength at 19, with the basic 25 added on top, that's a starting Strength of 75. Again, assuming a statline, Toughness as 18, that would mean a starting Toughness of 56, allowing you to get 5 Mechadendrites on creation (provided you can get them, one way or another). Each Manipulator Mechadendrite gives you +20 Strength when you choose to use it.

Potential 175 Strength, right off the bat, for the purpose of pushing things, ripping things open, crushing them, or - arguably - throwing very heavy objects around (if they are big enough to be grabbed by all your mechadendrites at once).

And yes, this is a character I would actually like to play. I wouldn't even consider it "broken", but it certainly takes advantage of the system in order to realize a concept that may be considered absurd, but definitely not outside the borders of the setting.

Edit 2: Get a single Tougness Characteristic Advance, and you can have 6 Manipulator Mechadendrites. Get a single Strength Characteristics Advance, and you have a flat 200 Strength for purposes of manipulating things (it should be noted that Manipulator Mechadendrites doesn't apply to doing damage, unless you somehow work in that they are use to wield what you are doing damage with… like picking up a tank and slapping someone with it, I guess).

Let's see, what are some things that can push the game to edge cases…

That toughness / strength build can be improved with some gear!

Drugs can increase toughness and strength: Hyperexia, Leatherwort, Barrage, Corpse Obmulen, and Scab are in various books, and impact strength and toughness in a useful way.  Chem Glands can be had with starting gear, as well… And several other implants help toughness or armor or resistance to physical things!  Hermetic Infusion, Rite of Setesh, Bionic Heart, Cranial Armor, Subskin Armor, Synthetic Muscle Grafts, Blackbone Bracing, Pain Ward, Vitae Supplement…  and there is some great tech-priest/explorator only gear from DH!  Dragon Scale Armor is fantastic, if your GM can figure out how an Enhanced Potentia Coil can interact with the Explorator versions of the powers (or get you access to the shield powers?), that's great too!  Integrated weapons are absolutely FANTASTIC -- no reloading, infinite ammo; be sure to get automatic weapons.  Minerva-Aegis Las Carbine, Dlaku Crusade Hellgun, even the Anoxis Stingray 'flamer' is an energy weapon!  Some other Lathe integrated weapons that are fantastic are the Lasblaster, the Phased Plasma Rifle, the Mass Driver… Explorators, with the right choices (max defenses and toughness and armor and such) can be combat monsters…

Ah, intelligence builds can ALSO use drugs fantastically.

Point buy: 25+20 = base 45 int

Homewold: forge world: +8 int

Birthright: scapegrace: +3 int

Lure of the Void: renegade: free-thinker +3 int or duty bound: duty to humanity: +3 int

Trials and Travails: whatever

Motivation: knowledge: knowledge is power, +3 int, 300 xp

a proud tradition: the last child, +3 int, 200 xp

Starts with 65 int.  Be sure to take the cheap increases to int ASAP.  Get a common Chem Gland as your first 'free' purchase on character generation.  Put Dreamjuice (+10 int), Attention Spanner (+30 int for a very very short period of time, if you succeed on a willpower test), and Sandstone (+30 willpower) in the Gland.