And my response is, "There is no causal, inverse relationship between being skilled at powergaming and being poor at roleplaying.  They are two separate aspects of the hobby, and two separate skills.  A person can be competent at both."

See the Stormwind Fallacy.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/26203097/The_Stormwind_Fallacy_%28repost%29

http://www.loremaster.org/content.php/146-The-Stormwind-Fallacy

Whether we are talking about…

…writing a longwinded backstory

…getting 'into' what the character would do, and doing that (or not doing that) in the social/behavioral game

…interacting and speaking appropriate to the character

…making tactically advantageous choices when in combat

…getting the numbers of the competencies of the character to truly shine and be quite powerful (with a nod to combat effectiveness as a 'typical' example of this)

…mitigating or nullifying or otherwise bypassing the issues and problems and weaknesses the character has, numerically.

to me isn't exactly relevant.  At least not the particular of which is which.  I place the first half of the options as 'roleplaying' and the last half with 'character optimization'.  And I don't see those two things as really… relating that much.  They are separate skills of the player.

 Okay, well then I take it that we agree somewhat. Probably just my personal experience biasing me towards those good at powergaming disregarding roleplaying alot. I do however LOVE it when people want to roll with something different gameplay (rolling part) and we can make it on par with the more optimal choices.

I'll check out your links as soon as I get home!

Gavinfoxx said:

I was being serious.  A campaign to find an intact and fully functional STC System is a valid quest for W40k.

One thing that amuses me is the idea that a Soldier whose life is on the line wouldn't pick up skills to improve his chances of living, that its somehow a meta construct of a player wanting to "beat the game".

Its like suggesting a Green Beret doesn't train for hours a day for combat readiness, because that would be "powergaming".

Funny stuff.

Why doesn't anyone call a Green Beret a real life munchkin? Cuz he'll punch them in the mouth.

Seeten said:

Okay, it seems like my grasp of the english language isn't quite sufficient for this but I'll try once more.

I'm not saying that these two playstyles are mutually exclusive, but for me it has been the norm. Rollplayers vs roleplayers more or less. The roleplayers still care about their character, but if they want to be a plasma freak I'll help them make that character viable. In DH I had to houserule both autofire and errata singelshot because players were getting tired of being "forced" into it. Semi burst was pointless more or less and for the people who wanted that there weren't any alternative. So we wanted to make various weapons more appealing and thus houseruled various things to make less used weapons more appealing. So we ended up with pyromaniacs, heavy gun fanatics, various melee weapons and so forth. It helped diversify the characters in combat and gave everyone their own niche where they might have a small edge over their comrades.

When you see EVERYONE going autoguns it starts to get old fast.

So my problem was the development of "stock" characters in terms of skills and gear, and some even went as far as getting stock personalities though I think that has more to do with the players themselves then anything else.

Hope that made my position more clear?

And great links, they managed to describe my predicament somewhat better I feel.

Perhaps you could say something like, "I know that it is possible to be both good at character optimization and at playing characters.  Unfortunately, in the area of the world where I game, the local gamers seem to be either good at one or the other, without being competent at both skills at once.  I have been frustrated in finding local examples of people who are good at both."

Malakh said:

And it was totally not what I was talking about.  That can be a long term goal for any character, but since possibly TRILLIONS of people are on that quest, with wayyyy more resources than you, it isn't, you know… a plausible way to really make change.  It is also totally not an effective/efficient way to spend your resources to make change.  There probably ISN'T a full STC anywhere.  When I mean a quest, I mean something that it is perhaps actually possible to do in an actual game where the DM doesn't just fiat say you do it.  Just because ever Explorator and Tech Priest everywhere in any of these games has that as their goal, doesn't mean it is actually a helpful thing to build a campagin around.  My idea of being a heretek, and reverse engineering xenostech and archeotech and doing research, and making a few forgeries of STC-based plans of specific categories of tech that the character is interested in, and then getting those forged plans on the fast track to adoption via bribes and convincing the right people? THAT is a plan.  THAT is a goal.  "Finding a completely intact STC" is more a pipe dream.  It isn't something you can really plausibly work towards effectively.

FYI, I'm still lookign for a GM to run a play by post or Skype RT game! Thanks!

Okay, I plausibly found a GM… but there are some, ah, 'issues'. I've sent a PM to the folk who expressed interest; if someone else wants to play in this game, and didn't get a PM, reply here and/or PM me!

Posting a reply here to say that the current GM has been kind of flaking on us, and I am looking for someone who could be…

1.) Co-GM
2.) Backup GM
or
3.) Replacement GM

as the case may be (not entirely sure which would be the case yet!)

Thanks!

CO-GM sounds interesting for it may give different possibilties.

GM narrates the gmae gives the new assigments, cosmic trails and quest opportunieties.

And the CO-GM does the same but in secrecy. Individual special assigmnts from the higher-ups, or someone cals in old favour and the player needs to convince others of that kind of handling the adventure to fulfill these additional aspects (for practicular  class), sudden changes in the way things work, or even act as the random corruption and insanity "force".

In my gaming society we have that kind of approach of giving special task to individuals like their own personal goals, in this way the Dark Secret thing can be used more to the advanteg or disadvantage of player or players. Or to play the Angel and Devil of conscience.

If you can't picture it too well get back to Dawn of War 2 Chaos Rising - Techmarine. Works for the good of Emperor, chapter and his brothers yet he is tainted. And the 2nd GM could be responsible for that kind of stuff. This way not only the Player, other players but the GM would have to handle suprises in the plot[/)].

Also for fullfiling those special assigments or foiling those of others there would additional XP, bonus points to some achivments, maybe even profit, or some item as a present or noticable sign of bribery.

Well, we have a GM for the Rogue Trader radical game, but several of the players seem to be quite absent. We NEED players who can post regularly on Skype. Please respond to me if you think you can manage!